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02:00:40<BPCZ>Oh tape talk, my favorite
02:00:59<BPCZ>fireonIive: next gen is 100TB in 2 years
02:02:02<nicolas17>tape seems fun but I don't have enough data to make it worth it
02:02:06<BPCZ>Also the whole tape counting compression thing is semi-viable based on historic use. No one internally quotes those numbers but the compression is built into the tape drive (makes them more expensive)
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02:02:07<nicolas17>the $/GB doesn't work
02:02:28<BPCZ>It takes around 100TB to make sense
02:02:41<BPCZ>By using like LTO5 off ebay
02:04:05<BPCZ>nicolas17: I’m in the middle of a full tape refresh at work. We need 600PiB usable day one. It’s shockingly cheap.
02:04:23<nicolas17>at that scale, I bet
02:04:46<BPCZ>The issue is the software stack for tape is absolute shit
02:04:53<nicolas17>tar :p
02:05:33<BPCZ>tar isn’t a stack it’s a format to turn small files into a single linear file so the shit tape software can better deal with it
02:06:20<fireonlive>100TB ooh
02:06:27<BPCZ>If you’re a smart little cookie you can actually write and read tar non-sequentially without repacking
02:06:32<nicolas17>I'm more like "how do I store 10TB cheaper than I already am" so yeah tape makes no sense
02:06:38<BPCZ>Which will physically kill the tape
02:09:02<@JAA>BPCZ: Aren't you much better off compressing on-the-fly on the CPU? The compression algorithm is pretty rubbish from what I've heard, though I never tried it myself.
02:09:10<nicolas17>Parkinson's Law: work expands until it feels all time available
02:09:21<nicolas17>the computer corollary is "Data expands to fill the space available for storage"
02:10:41<@JAA>I'm not yet at the scale where tape makes sense, but maybe in a couple years. I did reach 100 TB in raw disk locally a few months ago though. And I have wanted to play with LTO for some time.
02:10:53<fireonlive>it does sound neat...
02:11:02<fireonlive>i do like my kidneys though
02:11:11<BPCZ>JAA these days probably but there are ugh reasons for the drive level compression. I don’t think they’re good. Cloud vendors don’t think they’re good. But the mid tier likes the “free” compression that’s honestly pretty close to LZ4 in compression ratio
02:12:47<BPCZ>You have to understand you can serve 80 tape drives with a single server feeding all of them data at their peak speed. So if you’re going thin you just have that one or two servers shoveling data into the library and let the library deal with the compression that the one server could not do
02:13:06<@JAA>Right
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02:20:08<BPCZ>The thing that annoys me more about tape is like, there are modalities around how it’s accessed that are not good. Because posix doesn’t specifically how long it can take for IO to return it’s complaint to attempt to read a file and just have your terminal unkillably hang for days while the tape library software eventually gets around to your request
02:21:29<BPCZ>And that mentality infiltrates the entire stack of tape still where you get umactuallied about the posix standard OR you live in some hell world where someone build a non-posix system with a posix interface. It causes extremely bad designs to be built
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02:22:37<@JAA>Ah, fun.
02:23:31<BPCZ>There’s nothing stopping a posix like interface being stood up that does useful things like. Store the first N bytes of all files in a read only cache and design the tape robotics to have a minimum design spec to return the file so you can start reading a file artificially slowly then once the tape hosting that file is loaded read at the full tape speed
02:24:14<BPCZ>Or erasure encode the backend and use a lot of libraries to assure reads in a timely fashion
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02:24:56<BPCZ>Tape has this issue where it’s archive designed to be accessed maybe once a decade and people access it in the range of days instead
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02:28:48<@JAA>Yeah, for me, it'd probably just be backup of the primary HDD storage. Accessing it would happen only for (occasional verification and) restoring after disaster strikes.
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02:29:40<@JAA>Or perhaps for very cold storage of data I don't want to rm but also haven't accessed in years.
02:29:47<@JAA>Basically, stuff tapes were designed for.
02:33:33<BPCZ>yeah, the work buildout has been riddled with infighting about the design because it's more and more clear users want faster access to "archive" and don't actually assume the "archive" is archived and then replicated their data in 2-3 other locations
02:34:24<BPCZ>so we've been like, should we just buy 1EB of HDD and enough tape to do like 100PiB of storage and then really restrict what hits tape??
02:34:30<BPCZ>mass unknowns
02:35:10<nicolas17>BPCZ: I heard that's done for video-on-demand platforms sometimes
02:36:04<nicolas17>possibly internal video archives
02:36:05<nicolas17>the first few minutes of video stored in hard disks so the system has time to go fetch the tape with the rest
02:36:10<BPCZ>nicolas17, I find that unlikely. Like youtube putting low view stuff in tape maybe but traditional paid VOD na
02:36:42<BPCZ>yeah the cloud guys have the luxury of being able to not server posix so they can build their own interfaces
02:36:58<BPCZ>S3 is trash for a number of reasons but object as append only is so so so nice
02:39:07<nicolas17>"Some HSM software products allow the user to place portions of data files on high-speed disk cache and the rest on tape. This is used in applications that stream video over the internet—the initial portion of a video is delivered immediately from disk while a robot finds, mounts and streams the rest of the file to the end user. Such a system greatly reduces disk cost for large content provision systems." that's the quote I remembered
02:41:01<BPCZ>yeah it does kind of exist, the issue is that mode isn't standard and isn't supported by all software. Also explicitly for video this is a much easier issue as you can say "I dedicated 90% of my drives to tape reads and will assure any access for a file will take less than 1 minute"
02:41:11<BPCZ>the second you start doing pure data shit falls off
02:41:30<nicolas17>oh sure, you probably can't put a plain filesystem interface in front of that
02:42:05<BPCZ>actually for video you could, HSM is backend and on file open would start the retrieval
02:42:22<BPCZ>you just need to be sure to stay within your designed max concurrency
02:43:16<nicolas17>video is often split into multiple files nowadays (like HLS/DASH), it wouldn't surprise me if they have the first video segment files on disk and the rest on tape and custom shit to make reading the first one trigger a retrieval of the rest
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02:44:12<nicolas17>although I guess if you have HLS with multiple resolutions, you don't do this kind of tiering in the first place
02:44:20<BPCZ>yeah and a big part of the issue comes down to the number of robotics you have in the backed and number of drives
02:45:33<BPCZ>there are rumors that like google asked IBM for a single OCP rack design they could have 1000 of per data center and then do *magic* (good erasure encoding) to write and read files like a massive array of shitty HDDs with really long seek times and uptime issues
02:46:13<BPCZ>that product exists, can't recall the name but IBM is too fucking stupid to write an erasure encoded backend themselves while telling you how google plans to use it
02:46:48<nicolas17>there was a paper from Google basically asking what they want from hard disk manufacturers
02:47:39<nicolas17>one thing they said was "if you can give us better speed, or better density, or better price, at the cost of higher error rate, please do it"
02:47:49<BPCZ>oh yeah no secret there at this point, cloud vendors drive design now
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02:48:01<BPCZ>something to the tune of 70% of all storage is consumed by cloud vendors
02:48:35<nicolas17>they replicate stuff on multiple disks anyway, to survive total disk loss or to deal with the already-low read error rate
02:48:48<BPCZ>yep yep
02:49:09<BPCZ>I'd really rather things not go that way
02:49:56<nicolas17>BPCZ: here it is https://research.google/pubs/pub44830/
02:50:31<BPCZ>there is already a marked increase in hardware failure because cloud vendors have pushed the "go faster even if you break more often" button on every manufacture and there's no channel segmentation for their hardware preferences and everyone else buying the same gear expecting it to have similar failure characteristsics to the old stuff
02:51:31<nicolas17>interesting to see "youtube grows 1PB/day" in 2016 already
02:52:25<BPCZ>around 2016 a single google colossus cluster was 1-2EB. afaik there's a colossus cluster per logical DC
02:52:35<BPCZ>current guess is 10-20EB clusters on the high end
02:53:38<BPCZ>zero info about tier sizes though so it could be tape heavy, but I find that unlikely
02:54:26<nicolas17>I imagine at google scale they mainly use tape for backups
02:54:48<BPCZ>it's unlikely that's the case
02:55:06<BPCZ>tape is just that cheap
02:57:15<BPCZ>for example, apple stores around 1.2EB of data on google cloud for like 1 billion dollars. That's a write mostly workload acting as the backup of most iDevices
02:57:35<BPCZ>google would be incompetent to not have a hot storage tier that was tape specifically for that usecase
02:58:12<nicolas17>oh they do, google cloud has tiers like that
02:59:28<nicolas17>https://cloud.google.com/storage/docs/storage-classes
03:00:03<BPCZ>LOL wtf minimum storage charges amazing love it
03:00:33<nicolas17>you mean minimum duration? yeah
03:00:34<nicolas17>AWS Glacier does the same
03:02:16<nicolas17>if you write to tape (or SMR disks) and delete it minutes later, they can't necessarily reuse that storage due to fragmentation, so if you delete an object less than N days after storing it, they charge you for the remaining days
03:02:48<fireonlive>PM me your passwords i’ll keep them safe xox
03:03:01<BPCZ>yeah, I guess that gives me a new thing to think about with how they design
03:03:13<BPCZ>block management is a huge issue at any scale
03:03:42<nicolas17>something I don't understand about Google Cloud archival storage, or AWS Glacier, is that they charge you more for retrieval (so they discourage frequent retrieval), yet they *can* get you the data at low latency, so it seems like it's not tape?
03:04:06<nicolas17>Google claims "time to first byte tens of milliseconds" even for the archival tier
03:04:13<BPCZ>products being named similar doesn't mean they're implemented similarly
03:04:33<nicolas17>AWS Glacier lets you pay extra for instant retrieval, per request
03:04:47<nicolas17>I don't understand what implementation would work that way
03:04:51<BPCZ>even for deep archive?
03:05:06<nicolas17>ah no, deep archive is always slow
03:05:12<fireonlive>you need a phd in cloud to use these people’s services i swear
03:05:13<BPCZ>oh it's easy, QOS block management
03:06:44<BPCZ>the leading guess on how "archive" works for instant archive is just the cloud guys slice up HDD platters into performance zones, mark 70% of the drive as archive and use software QOS to rate limit read IO until the drive is a little less hot in the hot 30%
03:07:15<BPCZ>you just pay the QOS scheduler to bump your request up the queue
03:07:37<BPCZ>it's not like there are performance guarantees for S3 tiers lol
03:08:48<nicolas17>it's just weird how bulk retrieval can take 5-12 hours, but if you pay for Expedited Retrieval it takes 1-5 minutes
03:08:56<BPCZ>fireonlive, given that "cloud" was designed and built by PhDs scooped out of NASA and a few other research labs in the bay area these backends being this way isn't at all surprising
03:08:59<nicolas17>non-spinning disks maybe?
03:09:16<BPCZ>nicolas17, there are disk shelves that can be powered off too yeah
03:09:29<nicolas17>so if you pay for expedited they spin it up just for you
03:09:29<BPCZ>but really QOS at scale can be days
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03:10:12<@JAA>That's one I've heard of before, more in the context of limiting electricity consumption though.
03:10:32<BPCZ>JAA, which is important for "archive" usecases
03:10:38<@JAA>True
03:10:55<nicolas17>I wonder how long it takes to turn on a backblaze datacenter from a power outage :P
03:11:13<@JAA>So you have some fixed number of disks that may be spinning at any time, and then you distribute that across the queue.
03:11:15<BPCZ>they'd never come back up, lol
03:11:18<nicolas17>if every disk they have were to spin up at the same time, they'd kill the power plant
03:11:25<fireonlive>can: shake well
03:11:34<fireonlive>also can: explodes in white foamy mess
03:11:36<fireonlive>???
03:11:37<@JAA>The 5-12 hours can then also accomodate disks spinning down in the middle of a retrieval because something more urgent comes up etc.
03:12:20<nicolas17>BPCZ: very early in Backblaze's life they had this little incident... https://www.backblaze.com/blog/dont-push-that-button/
03:12:54<BPCZ>nicolas17, backblaze attempted to hire me. I heard more about how it worked. I will not work for or store data with them.
03:12:58<fireonlive>😂
03:13:12<fireonlive>@BPcZ: yikes that bad eh
03:13:21<BPCZ>the free tier loses data all the time fireonlive
03:13:31<BPCZ>B2 is not an interesting software stack
03:13:34<fireonlive>oh their unlimited pc backup thing?
03:13:37<BPCZ>just a very boring company
03:14:02<BPCZ>sorry yeah when I say free I mean the one where it's unlimited and they do all kinds of stupid stuff around it
03:14:03<nicolas17>isn't the B2 free tier like 1GB?
03:14:11<fireonlive>ahh
03:14:14<fireonlive>jeez lol
03:14:27<nicolas17>I tried the backup app and it's awful
03:14:43<fireonlive>i guess they think the users can just reupload it.. until some of their users can’t 👀
03:14:57<BPCZ>yep
03:15:25<BPCZ>you can't disconnect a drive for more than 30 days so they built the backend to be data lossy with that in mind
03:15:29<nicolas17>seesaw starting up 20 subprocesses for wget-at and rsync kinda makes sense, but I would expect "backblaze for windows" to do something better for multi-threaded uploads than starting 20 backup agent .exe
03:15:34<BPCZ>but they fucked up the loss rate
03:15:37<fireonlive>that’s sad lol
03:15:53<fireonlive>imagine your hdd crashes and they don’t have all your stuff
03:16:27<BPCZ>from what they said it's usually not that it's impossible to get data back but just like more effort on a ticket request if something gets lost
03:16:30<nicolas17>BPCZ: I thought backblaze backup basically used b2 in the backend... do they have different erasure coding parameters or what?
03:16:47<BPCZ>nicolas17, it may be that way now. This was years ago
03:16:51<nicolas17>or is it the app-level backup database and stuff that it sucks?
03:17:18<fireonlive>wonder if they bother with any kind of dedupe
03:17:37<fireonlive>so everyone’s copy of baitbus isn’t saved 20k times
03:17:58<nicolas17>that's a bit tricky due to encryption
03:18:06<nicolas17>but I think iCloud does it actually
03:18:17<fireonlive>i think on their desktop app it’s optional/harder to enable
03:18:34<BPCZ>same reason I won't work for dropbox honestly
03:18:44<BPCZ>their backend is just an absolute abortion
03:19:34<@JAA>nicolas17: The keyword is 'convergent encryption', and if someone uses it, it's best to stay far away from it.
03:19:41<fireonlive>that would be a fun tour
03:19:53<fireonlive>“walk us though your backend dropbox”
03:19:53<@JAA>BPCZ: Only the backend?
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03:20:20<nicolas17>yes I'm pretty sure iCloud uses convergent encryption
03:20:23<BPCZ>software engineers being tasked with the whole ops stack way maybe not a good idea, from what I've heard about magic pocket it's really magic in that they have a retry look up indirect erasure backend that is so fucked it can loop back to the local array that made the request
03:20:41<BPCZ>JAA, hey. For 300k you'll consider working on bad shit
03:20:52<@JAA>Heh
03:21:28<fireonlive>300k pls
03:21:33<nicolas17>I won't :o
03:21:45<@JAA>fireonlive: Had to look Baitbus up. 'website specialising in gay pornography of the gay-for-pay type' lol
03:21:47<fireonlive>nicolas17: hey be a sell out like the rest of us
03:21:56<fireonlive>JAA: xD
03:22:15<fireonlive>fun fact: it was only recently i found out there was a *straight* version of czech hunter
03:22:25<fireonlive>i was quite confused!
03:22:58<BPCZ>I mean also at this point in my career I'm solidly not willing to work on C++ which kills most backend dev jobs for me thankfully
03:23:03<BPCZ>trapped in SRE hell
03:23:07<BPCZ>Go 4 lyfe
03:23:29fireonlive puts BPCZ in the python mines
03:23:34<BPCZ>NOOOOO
03:23:41<BPCZ>fireonlive, you can't make me I swear to god
03:23:42<nicolas17>fireonlive: I don't think Apple could possibly pay me enough to sign an Apple NDA
03:23:47<fireonlive>>:D
03:23:51<BPCZ>I've seen things, terrible terrible things
03:24:00<@JAA>BPCZ: What can you tell us about Box.com?
03:24:09<fireonlive>nicolas17: i could see you violating that very quickly!
03:24:19<BPCZ>JAA, literally nothing.
03:24:44<fireonlive>1TB/mo upload limit :s
03:24:54<fireonlive>but apparently also garbage in general
03:25:11<fireonlive>your price per month goes up based on the maximum file size you’re allowed to store?
03:25:13<@JAA>Yeah, that's what I heard and was wondering how many corpses were lying around in the backend.
03:25:21<BPCZ>I still have a free lifetime 1TB of storage there and never use it
03:25:51<BPCZ>JAA, they don't pay well and as far as I know they're kind of like a C-tier company in the space so I assume it's just pure shit all the way down
03:26:27<fireonlive>brb setting up next cloud and selling it a la hetzner
03:26:34<nicolas17>who's the A-tiers though
03:26:39<BPCZ>fireonlive, I've had to deal with python seg faulting too many time for me to be willing to use it
03:26:42<BPCZ>nicolas17, AWS
03:26:52<nicolas17>would you work for AWS? :P
03:26:55<BPCZ>lol
03:27:00<BPCZ>no
03:27:05<fireonlive>BPCZ: what if i promise no jython
03:27:07<fireonlive>:D
03:27:11<BPCZ>https://cffi.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
03:27:13<@JAA>Python seg faults are fun. :-)
03:27:18<DigitalDragons>did someone say jython
03:27:19<BPCZ>this hurt me when I first ran into it
03:27:33<nicolas17>you don't need cffi/ctypes to segfault though
03:28:01<BPCZ>yeah you don't but when you hit that you just want to die because it's an unsolvable issue for you at that point
03:28:15<BPCZ>went off to some fuck off binary you don't control and don't want to trace down the issue
03:28:46<fireonlive>🙃
03:28:48<flashfire42>fireonlive man baitbus havent heard that name in years
03:28:59<nicolas17>eval((lambda:0).__code__.replace(co_consts=()))
03:29:30<flashfire42>Time to code everything in swift
03:29:36<fireonlive>flashfire42: :D
03:29:38<@JAA>Well, ok, but if you mess with code objects...
03:29:41<BPCZ>nicolas17, AWS is a slave ship. If I was forced to work at one of the big ones it would be MS. They pay fine and actually have WLB. Google is objectively evil, AWS is full of sociopaths in management more so than elsewhere, meta is nominally interesting but has no corporate direction
03:29:43<fireonlive>throwback!
03:29:53<flashfire42>Fuck you, Codes in Lingo
03:30:27<fireonlive>how’s that meta verse working out lol
03:30:40<nicolas17>fireonlive: last I heard, neopets had more monthly active users
03:30:46<fireonlive>hahaha
03:30:50<BPCZ>brutal
03:30:59<fireonlive>BPCZ: would you enjoy Azure though :p
03:31:31<BPCZ>fireonlive, in my subject domain they are the leader for the cloud compute options. Enjoy dunno, work on interesting things, probably
03:31:39<nicolas17>BPCZ: https://notnow.dev/notice/AUG80OVkBJOi9WezIG
03:31:47<fireonlive>fair
03:31:54<flashfire42>its wild to think for every single website it is stored physically somewhere in the world tho. Like the disconnect you have that every time you stream from netflix, watch a video on youtube there is a drive spinning to life somewhere
03:32:36<fireonlive>just to serve me ASMR boyfriend videos?
03:32:36<nicolas17>flashfire42: I feel that way with local stuff too
03:32:37<BPCZ>I actually knew a Sr VP in the metaverse division of meta. Dude was making 1.2 million a year to tell Mark how great the hardware was coming along. And to be fair he wasn't wrong the hardware is great
03:32:45<fireonlive>crazy how life is eh
03:32:54<nicolas17>the amount of shit that just happened when I pressed enter on that message
03:32:59<BPCZ>fireonlive, that hits a little too close to home
03:33:12<fireonlive>yeah… 😢
03:33:17<BPCZ>me in my house alone unable to find a suitable life mate
03:33:20<flashfire42>Exactly its wild. I love the idea that there is more power in a modern calculator than there is that sent man to the moon.
03:33:25<fireonlive>same lol
03:33:46<nicolas17>there was an article about someone's crazy ad-blocking setup
03:33:56<flashfire42>https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/503/325/eeb.jpg
03:34:08<BPCZ>I don't want to say I get upset when people learn what I do and make sweeping "oooh money" comments but like very disheartening when you're trying to build a real relationship
03:34:15<fireonlive>but hey the ex visits at times? i guess?
03:34:27fireonlive stares at wall
03:34:29flashfire42 slaps fireonlive around a bit with a large trout
03:34:33<flashfire42>ex is ex for reason
03:34:34<fireonlive>😅
03:34:35<nicolas17>and a friend said "pi-holes are weird, I'm not gonna carry a fucking raspberry pi around with me just to act as a DNS server with a filter"
03:34:47<BPCZ>based friend
03:34:52<nicolas17>and I was like, what do you mean carry
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03:35:10<nicolas17>you just set it up next to your wi-fi router
03:35:15<fireonlive>BPCZ: ye i bet you don’t want to just feel like some paypig
03:35:18<nicolas17>how many people who set up and recommend pi-holes leave the house anyway
03:35:28<BPCZ>na, set it up on a VPS and hit it anywhere nicolas17
03:35:40<BPCZ>are you not running a custom DNS on your phone when you're out of your house?
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03:35:50<fireonlive>lols
03:35:55<flashfire42>No I have an iPhone
03:36:09<BPCZ>you can still hit the pihole with an iphone lol
03:36:28<fireonlive>hit it and …. don’t suit it?
03:36:34<DigitalDragons>not on cellular you can't :(
03:36:35<fireonlive>quit*
03:36:45<BPCZ>DigitalDragons, laughs in VPN
03:36:54<DigitalDragons>fair lol
03:37:45<BPCZ>Oh just encase anyone here is stupid. DO NOT WORK FOR NASA. This is your only warning.
03:37:58<thuban>oh? :3
03:38:14<flashfire42|m>As an Australian idiot I don’t think that will be an issue.
03:38:19<BPCZ>I have seen man made horrors beyond your comprehension
03:38:30<flashfire42|m>So have I
03:38:36<thuban>don't be a tease
03:38:53<fireonlive>im twitching at the seams
03:38:58<BPCZ>like life FTP severs on phone lines still serving data to the internet at a blazing mid kbps speed
03:39:16<thuban>exquisite
03:39:22<DigitalDragons>what do you mean "upgrade"
03:39:26<fireonlive>damn
03:39:29<BPCZ>The internal NASA network is the absolute worst thing I have ever seen, and I've seen DOD and academic networks
03:40:10<fireonlive>if it works never touch it? :p
03:40:27<BPCZ>😭
03:41:18<DigitalDragons>but is it load-bearing ethernet bad?
03:41:29<BPCZ>yes
03:41:59<BPCZ>it's don't tug on that power cord the under floor electrical might be loose and you could die bad
03:42:01<fireonlive>BPCZ be like https://i-kym--cdn-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/028/154/Screen_Shot_2019-01-14_at_1.23.53_PM.jpg
03:42:19<fireonlive>oh i guess it copied the url not the jpg
03:42:50<BPCZ>every so often at a conference I see my old boss who took a job there as a retirement thing, great dude. He looked 10 years older after I'd not seen him for a year as he was the kind of guy to actually look at the problem head on. I'm pretty sure he found a RHEL 5 box in production in an area he owned
03:43:37<@JAA>NASA is fascinating. They have some very advanced technology for modern spacecraft etc., but at the same time, there's also every tech generation since the 50s or 60s everywhere.
03:44:11<BPCZ>JAA, the best explanation I have on that is the mentality is everything should be designed to work for 20 years minimum. Everything.
03:45:01<@JAA>Which isn't *entirely* unreasonable given what they're dealing with. Hubble or the ISS run on ancient hardware, for example.
03:45:08<@JAA>And you can't just upgrade that.
03:45:22<fireonlive>no apt for those :(
03:45:47<DigitalDragons>apt install iss-life-support
03:45:58<@JAA>It's also part of the success of their missions I'm sure.
03:46:08<nicolas17>yeah
03:46:34<@JAA>In particular the stuff surviving for much longer than originally budgeted, precisely because it's built with significant safety margins.
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03:46:54<nicolas17>and there's no reason to upgrade the ground control systems for the ISS, it works, it's not gonna become incompatible because the ISS is not getting upgraded either, "upgrades" risk breaking things
03:47:07<BPCZ>yep, they're very serous about getting it right the first time no matter the cost
03:47:22<fireonlive>*turns off my oxygen, maxes out my nitrogen*
03:47:25<nicolas17>but if they have old shit for their science outreach websites and such? that has little excuse
03:47:31<@JAA>Well, not getting it right and having to redo it would be more expensive, so... :-)
03:47:35<fireonlive>thanksn iss
03:47:53<BPCZ>It's kind of funny watching SpaceX fail to get a launch pad right when I was involved in the SLS launch pad modeling and the simulations showed something very similar to what happened to SpaceX as an issue
03:48:16<fireonlive>move fast and break things, but in space?
03:48:41<BPCZ>it's much cheaper to model things and test only a few times than it is to burn billions of dollars doing live fire testing and getting more data you can't really use
03:48:52<DigitalDragons>move fast and break people
03:48:54<DigitalDragons>...wait
03:49:14<nicolas17>BPCZ: I thought SpaceX knew how to do a launch pad right
03:49:30<nicolas17>but daddy musk said "I don't care, do it this way because I say so"
03:49:56<fireonlive>DigitalDragons: hi my name is people
03:49:59<BPCZ>nicolas17, it's hard to know exactly what the SpaceX guys know when Musk is forcing them to change designs
03:51:54<fireonlive>i’m honestly surprised he hasn’t made at least one of them look like a giant cock and balls
03:51:57<fireonlive>for the memes
03:51:57<BPCZ>I can tell you this, my opinion of SpaceX was ruined a few years ago when they screamed bloody murder about needing 2 months of dedicated compute time on a few thousand nodes. Got the allocation, didn't use it, attempted to launch without the simulations required for safety validation, claimed they scrubbed due to weather, requested another 2 months of compute time, completed the calculations within 3 days
03:52:18<fireonlive>🤨
03:52:32<nicolas17>were you at nasa then or?
03:52:37<BPCZ>yes
03:55:03<flashfire42|m><BPCZ> "JAA, the best explanation I have..." <- I don’t even know if I’m gonna work for another 20 years minimum
03:55:43<BPCZ>I have some level of inkling as to when Musk was like "damn I should build a cluster" because SpaceX asked a fuck load of questions about how the system worked that it could do the calculations that fast
03:55:48<flashfire42|m>Also is the ISS joint venture still active what with the war?
03:56:12<BPCZ>yeah it's active, space is a geopolitics lite zone
03:56:43<BPCZ>the cosmonauts are just Russian scientists that want to be doing science same as our guys and gals
03:56:56<fireonlive>space sabotage would be quite interesting if tragic
03:57:38<nicolas17>I bet the cosmonauts also prefer to be up there than in Russia
03:57:51<fireonlive><_<
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04:01:50<flashfire42|m>Probably.
04:02:42flashfire42|m uploaded an image: (53KiB) < https://matrix.hackint.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/sEjnEDGbeQVyakDdWwDJANXj/ima_0599111.jpeg >
04:03:32<fireonlive>nice
04:04:11<flashfire42|m>Lunch will be nice today. Garlic chicken balls and chips with chicken salt. The best salt
04:04:28<BPCZ>That does sound salty
04:04:35<BPCZ>How is your heart health
04:04:50<flashfire42|m>Probably not great between than and the amount of cheese I eat
04:05:01<flashfire42|m>But my meds will likely kill me before hand anyway
04:06:19<fireonlive>speaking of meds i think i forgot mine today lol
04:06:35<fireonlive>☠️
04:06:36<flashfire42|m>Oh dear 😅
04:07:25<fireonlive>yeeeee :c
04:07:34flashfire42|m uploaded an image: (3317KiB) < https://matrix.hackint.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/NqeHlBqFQAtBLpuufvJUWJba/ima_8c3da74.jpeg >
04:08:34<fireonlive>nice
04:09:15<DogsRNice>its funny the kind of things that get saved way too many times https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/848956982043213825/1145567275043258458/image.png
04:09:35<fireonlive>only 18 uniques!
04:10:21<nicolas17>facepalm
04:10:24<nicolas17>I hope those are dedup'd
04:11:17<fireonlive> i'm.. not entrely sure the wbm dedupes
04:11:34<fireonlive>on a spn elvel at least
04:12:11<fireonlive>gif is accually pronounced "yiff"
04:12:13<nicolas17>I *have* seen "revisit records" mentioned in the list of captures
04:12:15<fireonlive>the more you know
04:12:33<fireonlive>hmm
04:12:39<BPCZ>I would really hope the WBM does some kind of block dedupe
04:12:49DigitalDragons is reminded of the *other* kind of "yiff"
04:13:16<audrooku|m>fireonlive: I cant tell if you're kidding or fell for the meme
04:13:38<fireonlive>kidding :p
04:13:44<fireonlive>it's really "jif"
04:14:07<nicolas17>BPCZ: afaik warc files can have "the response body for this request is the same as the one in this previous response <link>"
04:14:08<DogsRNice>ive been wondering that for a while, is there anything in place to reduce duplication or does it all just take up space, like the images for discord emojis get saved every time a discord invite link is saved for some reason, and theres tens of thousands of captures for all of them
04:14:38<flashfire42|m>I don’t think it does for the reason being that that resources saved may change
04:14:39<fireonlive>DigitalDragons: exactly :p
04:14:41<nicolas17>DogsRNice: I think that depends on what does the archiving, it's not deduplicated by archive.org after the fact (but maybe it should?)
04:15:22<flashfire42|m>Like it uses closest to saved date of page to populate resources
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04:15:58<DigitalDragons>whether that's worth it depends how much duplication actually exist
04:16:08<DigitalDragons>s
04:18:03<BPCZ>nicolas17: in a few more years a lot of design patterns are going to be thrown out the window when HDD finally becomes economically questionable to use.
04:18:40<fireonlive>sweet
04:18:41<nicolas17>do you think SSDs will beat them in $/GB?
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04:27:30<BPCZ>Depends who you believe
04:27:42<BPCZ>HDD manufacturers say no, SSD manufacturers say yes
04:28:21<BPCZ>I’d bet the SSD manufacturers are right because the fixed cost of HDD is pretty high and they can’t hit their new tech timelines for shit
04:28:56<fireonlive>oh i can't believe i missed this opportunity
04:29:00<fireonlive>flashfire42|m: nice balls m8
04:29:04<BPCZ>There’s already a 61TB pcie ssd that just hit the market and it’s not poorly priced
04:34:35<@JAA>> Solidigm D5-5316 drives can be found for approximately $0.08 - $0.10 per gigabyte
04:34:38<@JAA>Wow
04:38:06<@JAA>Definitely not around here though. lol
04:39:14<nicolas17>how are HDDs nowadays
04:40:27<@JAA>Consumer prices for HDDs are around $15/TB here.
04:41:25<@JAA>SSDs actually start at around twice that around here, but they're the type of SSD you don't want to use for anything.
04:42:47<@JAA>Oh, and I accidentally an order of magnitude on that price above, yeah, that's not particularly impressive.
04:42:51<@JAA>I should probably go to bed.
04:43:06<fireonlive>night JAA :3
04:43:12<fireonlive>dream of SSDs
04:43:37<@JAA>Or of gay-for-pay websites. We'll see.
04:46:17<fireonlive>😉
04:46:26<fireonlive>the latter is better
04:46:29<fireonlive>maybe.
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07:20:26<fireonlive>night all ;)
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08:40:01<@rewby>JAA: "Gay for pay" is just onlyfans with extra steps
08:50:13<Exorcism>:3
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10:36:42<Exorcism>https://end2end.tech/ the new Anonymous File Uploader
10:36:47miki_57 joins
10:36:51<Exorcism>duh fuck miki
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10:37:29<@rewby>miki_57: Can you please fix your client?
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10:38:10<Exorcism>☠
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10:39:00@rewby sets mode: +bbbb miki_57!*@* Please!*@* fix!*@* your!*@*
10:39:02@rewby sets mode: +b client!*@*
10:39:10@rewby sets mode: -bbbb miki_57!*@* Please!*@* fix!*@* your!*@*
10:39:11@rewby sets mode: -b client!*@*
10:39:38<@rewby>Here I go thinking my irc client is smart
10:40:36<Exorcism>lmao, speaking of that, isn't there a way to hide join and quit messages on weechat?
10:40:56<@rewby>There is. But we do have a rule against unstable connections
10:41:23@rewby taps the sign https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/Archiveteam:IRC#Special_Archive_Team_IRC_rules
10:42:33<@rewby>And also, the reason they're "/quit"-ing is a SendQ error. That is, they're sending too many messages too quickly
10:43:28<Exorcism>lmaooo
10:43:41<@rewby>But yeah, was trying to do a /kickban for a sec so it wouldn't autore-join
10:45:15<@rewby>Also failed at doing said kickban
10:45:23<@rewby>But you know how it goes
10:46:26<Exorcism>yeah haha
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11:18:12<miki_57>Ye. Sorry
11:18:28<miki_57>Something wrong with this app :/
11:18:43<@HCross>Dodgy IRCCloud endpoint?
11:18:47<@HCross>It's fine for me
11:19:13<miki_57>I think the app struggling somehow idk
11:23:57<miki_57>Mhh. Maybe is something related for the inactivity timer
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11:24:43<@rewby>miki_57: The errors we saw were SendQ. Which means you were sending too many messages too quickly
11:26:38<miki_57>I see only "connection closed unexpectedly".. and create a sort of spam. Sorry again. If happen again I will use only irc via PC and not smartphone.
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12:23:43<Exorcism>miki_57: you can use "CoreIRC Go" it's free and here is :p
12:24:15<Exorcism>anyways, you want to archive your wordpress without paying 38 dollars at the end of your life to have it put on IA? well now it's possible! https://pypi.org/project/wordpress-rss-archiver/ :3
12:25:11<miki_57>Exorcism: you use that without any problems ?
12:26:30<Exorcism>yeah, and cleary its better than irccloud
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12:41:14<miki_57>I'll give it a try, thanks
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12:52:41<yzqzss>Exorcism: it's $38,000, not $38.000
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13:37:05<Exorcism|TheLounge>:oof:
13:40:55<@kaz>Europeans write numbers funny, 38,000 is 38.000 to them
13:42:14FireFly is in team space-as-thousands-separator
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13:45:54<yzqzss>kaz: 😄
13:53:37<@kaz>FireFly: thats ok! everyone is allowed to have bad opinions sometimes :)
13:55:48<FireFly>:p
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15:44:41<fireonlive>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Can_Eat_Glass
15:59:37<nstrom|m>I remember that site
16:35:10<fireonlive>https://mkx9delh5a.execute-api.ca-central-1.amazonaws.com/uploads/a-very-nice-image.png
16:35:16<fireonlive>png is really the best format
16:35:48<fireonlive>reddit is thought leader
16:49:21<nicolas17>is that apng?
16:49:53<fireonlive>even worse
16:50:00<fireonlive>i mean better
16:50:50<nicolas17>oh cheating
16:54:27<fireonlive>i took reddit’s thought leader position and ran with it poorly :P https://i.redd.it/wavd9gay3tkb1.jpg
16:58:34<@JAA>kaz: I offer you 38'000. I believe we're the only country that does that.
16:59:58<@JAA>fireonlive: No pay-for-gay porn in my dreams. You weren't persuasive enough.
17:02:15<fireonlive>damn
17:02:22<fireonlive>i’ll have to try harder next time
17:04:23<@JAA>gay-for-pay*
17:09:46<fireonlive>oh wow, one of the gay-for-pay brands got an 8 episode documentary tv series o_O
17:10:33<fireonlive>“broke straight boys” https://www.queerty.com/watch-the-gay-for-pay-performers-behind-broke-straight-boys-tell-their-story-in-this-wild-docuseries-20230328 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5082522/
17:10:41<fireonlive>cc flashfire42
17:11:33<fireonlive>like it’s on prime video/apple tv/youtube tv lol. weird
17:34:46<fireonlive>re: fig acquired by amazon; apparently they just launched in mid-2021 lol https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27277819
17:51:35<fireonlive>Exclusive: Microsoft quietly ends unlimited cloud storage option on OneDrive: https://www.techradar.com/pro/exclusive-microsoft-quietly-ends-unlimited-cloud-storage-option-on-onedrive
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21:15:20<@JAA>OWASP drama: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/curphey_as-of-today-im-no-longer-a-board-member-activity-7100516115662999553--0ok https://groups.google.com/a/owasp.org/g/global-board/c/IfxkC08fosU/m/aOK_wzXgCgAJ
21:20:01<nstrom|m>Thanks
21:33:38<@JAA>> == Choosing the Right Moisturizer for Acne-Prone Skin ==
21:33:42<@JAA>Ah yes, wiki spam...
21:38:26<fireonlive>how lovely
21:43:25<@rewby>JAA: Since I don't want to click on LI, what's up beyond someone stepping down?
21:44:29<nstrom|m>The Google groups link has some juciy discussion
21:45:02<@rewby>nstrom|m: There's a lot of messages in there and I dunno which to look at
21:45:28<fireonlive>rewby: i'll transfer the text
21:45:32<nstrom|m>But long story short concerns of conflict of interest w board member potentially profiting w their full time job through owasp connections
21:46:02<nstrom|m>They got called out and resigned, others in board called vote of no confidence anyways
21:46:14<nstrom|m>From what I could tell w a quick read
21:46:17<fireonlive>rewby: https://transfer.archivete.am/11krup/linkedin.txt
21:47:44<fireonlive>links: https://lnkd.in/gCTVeBiD → https://groups.google.com/a/owasp.org/g/global-board/c/IfxkC08fosU/m/aOK_wzXgCgAJ ; https://lnkd.in/gMdaecGH → https://owasp-change.github.io/ ; https://lnkd.in/gTe_XFpW → https://owasp.org/blog/2023/03/10/strategic-plan-open-letter-update ; https://lnkd.in/em8TTZn7 → https://softwaresecurityproject.org/
21:48:02<fireonlive>https://owasp-change.github.io/ seems interesting
21:49:54<@rewby>I genuinely can't tell exactly what the heck happened
21:50:26<fireonlive>some of the comments I can see while logged out: https://mkx9delh5a.execute-api.ca-central-1.amazonaws.com/uploads/477c286cf620e832/image.png
21:50:40<fireonlive>i haven't fully wrapped my head around it myself
21:54:00<Barto>always take with a grain of salt what is written on LinkedIn :-)
21:55:56<@rewby>From what I can tell, it all looks to be a disagreement in the community on what OWASP should be. And then some potential "commercial interest/conflict" causing people to get ejected
21:56:00<@rewby>Which can be interpreted many ways
21:58:06<fireonlive>-+rss- Introducing ChatGPT Enterprise: https://openai.com/blog/introducing-chatgpt-enterprise https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37297304
21:58:08<fireonlive>~enterprise~
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22:18:30<flashfire42>If anyone wants more of my shitposting album ie my reactions let me know i will try and find a way to get it to you
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23:06:10fangfufu joins
23:09:06parchivist quits [Remote host closed the connection]
23:21:44<nicolas17>https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FDOVIyuXoAI928_.png throwback to this great moment in information security
23:22:51<fireonlive>lmao
23:24:09<@JAA>:-)

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