HomeSearchPrevious dayNext day

00:03:49onetruth quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:08:57<atphoenix>that page also links to https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Rescuing_Floppy_Disks
00:09:29<atphoenix>I've also posted to JS's Discord channel on media transfer help.
00:13:06hooway quits [Client Quit]
00:28:53benjins joins
00:47:05flashfire42 (flashfire42) joins
01:02:47dm4v_ joins
01:02:59Mineroboter joins
01:03:09dm4v quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:03:09dm4v_ is now known as dm4v
01:03:09dm4v quits [Changing host]
01:03:09dm4v (dm4v) joins
01:05:10Mineroboter_ quits [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
01:14:10<SketchTheCow>Hello what
01:18:12<thuban>Doranwen has some floppies, including a 5.25" she can't rip herself
01:18:54<thuban>Doranwen, here's jason ^
01:38:34BlueMaxima quits [Client Quit]
01:49:44<Doranwen>oh, hi, sorry, went to have supper
01:50:30<Doranwen>yeah, I picked up all the books/media remnants of a community garage sale, which means I get a lot of odd things - in amongst that were two 5.25" floppies for one software program (CrossStitch Designer), and disk 1 of 2 of another program (Diet Analysis Plus 4.0 for Windows Disk) on a 3.5" floppy
01:50:42<Doranwen>the CrossStitch Designer came with a binder of a printed out manual for it as well
01:51:03<Doranwen>I don't have any floppy drives functional that I know of, and definitely not a 5.25" one
01:51:14<Doranwen>but I'm happy to media mail the lot somewhere
01:51:18<Doranwen>if they would be desired
01:51:54<Doranwen>the one 3.5" floppy tucks nicely into the inside cover of the binder so it's very compact (the 5.25" floppies actually have their own pouches in the binder in a plastic sleeve thing) and should travel well
01:52:13<Doranwen>SketchTheCow: I just need to know who/where to send it
01:52:20<Doranwen>if they're desired
01:52:35<Doranwen>because the only other place they can go here would be the trash :/
01:52:43Doranwen definitely cannot keep them at all
01:59:15dewdrop quits [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)]
02:04:20dewdrop (dewdrop) joins
02:18:56dewdrop quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:21:37dewdrop (dewdrop) joins
02:27:51dewdrop quits [Client Quit]
02:28:51dewdrop (dewdrop) joins
03:12:49<SketchTheCow>How many boxes.
03:13:02<SketchTheCow>Jason Scott, c/o Internet Archive, 300 Funston Avenue, San Francisco, CA 94118
03:16:39Ruthalas quits [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
03:24:08<Wayward>"Contains magnet media. Floppy computer diskettes."
03:27:16Ruthalas (Ruthalas) joins
03:35:10Ruthalas quits [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
03:47:57DogsRNice_ (Webuser299) joins
03:49:28DogsRNice quits [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
03:49:28Ruthalas (Ruthalas) joins
03:49:30Ruthalas quits [Client Quit]
03:52:26qw3rty_ joins
03:56:08qw3rty__ quits [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
04:06:21etnguyen03 quits [Client Quit]
04:39:33BlueMaxima joins
04:42:25Matthww quits [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)]
04:42:48Matthww joins
04:48:30DogsRNice_ quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:16:12<Doranwen>SketchTheCow: it's just the one binder with the disks and manual inside, so not even a box, just a paper-bag-turned-into-envelope with some packing tape
05:16:19<Doranwen>I'll try to have that out in the next week, then
05:20:39<@JAA>I have a feeling that Jason meant the whole garage sale lot if you intend to not keep it anyway.
05:28:34<Doranwen>ohhhh, no, I'm sorting that stuff out
05:29:48<Doranwen>there's a bunch going to my church for a giveaway table there, a bunch going to a community sale they hold to help support the community center services they provide (clothing and other stuff for those who need it), a bunch of children's books I'm taking to the school I work at to let the kids select books to take home and keep, etc.
05:30:32<Doranwen>though I do have a few that go in the recycle pile - mostly old textbooks that are outdated and heavy (and there's no way I'm paying to ship *those* anywhere)
05:31:46<Doranwen>and I think I just found another that might have to go there unless it's really desired for some reason - it looks like it went with a CD of software from the early CD era - PrintMaster Premier Image Index - like, someone literally put together a BOOK of the images so they could be identified by code and located on the source media or something like that…
05:32:08Doranwen does not have the CD in any of the stuff that she's seen so far, and all the non-book media she's already gone through
05:36:08<@JAA>Old textbooks are quite interesting though. But yeah, shipping heavy stuff is horrible.
05:36:24<Doranwen>I don't have an objection to sending boxes of things on except that that would be a lot of money for me to ship heavy boxes of books, even at media mail rates, so I generally try to keep the books moving to a new home where they will be loved - in the local area
05:36:51<Doranwen>yeah, if they were old in the sense of 100 years old, I'd be holding onto them
05:37:01<Doranwen>but these are like 60s, 70s era
05:37:25<Doranwen>outdated but not old enough to be interesting, and there are lots of them floating around
05:37:49<Doranwen>hopefully someone who has the $$ and inclination can send enough samples on to IA to be sufficiently represented, but that someone is not me
05:37:51<@JAA>Not old enough *yet* :-)
05:38:11<@JAA>But yeah, I understand completely.
05:52:24<Doranwen>it really is too bad, though - among the boxes I was given were some that weren't in the sale at all - they were weeded out of the library at the elementary school where I used to work
05:53:02<Doranwen>several boxes of outdated (or sometimes extra copies of) books, mostly from 50s-80s era, I think
05:53:18<Doranwen>I haven't even really looked at those yet, it's a slow process, sorting everything out and getting it to where it can be best used
05:53:38<Doranwen>but most of those won't be appreciated
05:53:45<Doranwen>and will be hard to find a new home for
05:55:57<Wayward>if only someone came out with a very extraordinary android/ios app for scanning books from a cellphone on a tripod, where the user can just quickly flip through pages and the app keeps up, handling focus and alignment and parallax and cropping, etc. key feature being speed.
05:56:15<Wayward>then we can just scan books and throw them away without thinking too much about it
05:56:45<Wayward>no prepping and fretting and dedicating a whole day to the effort
05:57:01<@JAA>High quality results I'm sure.
05:57:05<Doranwen>lol
05:57:21<Doranwen>well, I'm holding onto some stuff in hopes that the scanner my brother is going to build for me will work to scan it
05:57:23<Wayward>the technology is there.
05:57:25<Doranwen>but I can't hold onto THAT much
05:57:34<@JAA>Also, IIRC IA actually needs to keep the physical copies for managed lending and all that crap.
05:57:34Doranwen just doesn't have the physical space :/
05:57:39<Doranwen>yeah
05:57:54<Wayward>16 to 30 megapixels for a book that only needs 2 megapixel final crop.
05:58:16<@JAA>Curvature correction is very mediocre.
05:58:24<Wayward>lots of slop room on just about every piece of hardware we stow in our pockets these days
05:58:53<Wayward>JAA: it was 20 years ago
05:59:11<@JAA>No, still is.
05:59:24<@JAA>Even on professional devices, it's pretty meh.
05:59:45<@JAA>Excluding the ones which press the pages flat with glass, obviously.
06:00:04<Doranwen>yeah, that's the sort I want, lol
06:00:13<@JAA>There are good ones, but they're very expensive.
06:00:20Doranwen has the glass, just hopes her brother can figure out how to build it right
06:00:35<Doranwen>the PVC pipe design isn't that expensive, fortunately!
06:00:39<Wayward>at an app and algorithm level, with 32 megapixels to mess with at a 1/16th crop, you can do all sorts of virtual curvature correction
06:00:43<Doranwen>but there's nothing premade that's cheap
06:00:43<@JAA>The ones I've seen used an overhead laser to project a grid onto the pages every few turns to get the necessary correction.
06:01:21<Wayward>biggest problem with glass press is anti-glare
06:01:31<@JAA>That produces pretty good results as long as there isn't a lot of content in the extreme curvature areas.
06:02:09<Doranwen>Wayward: that's why you build the scanner with a 100° angle platen
06:02:25<Doranwen>apparently somewhere around 101° or 102° is ideal, but 100° is pretty good to eliminate glare, from what I'm told
06:02:55<Doranwen>at least, that's the collective wisdom at the diybookscanner forum
06:03:28<@JAA>Maybe you can do decent curvature correction with multi-camera setups without the need for a laser grid et al. I'm not convinced the 1 cm separation on smartphone cameras would be enough for that though.
06:03:44<@JAA>Not to mention that those aren't really designed for this use.
06:03:49<Wayward>all the new cellphones come with 5 cameras now
06:03:59<Wayward>on the one side
06:06:17<@JAA>Yes, but those are different cameras. Different apertures, angles, etc.
06:06:41<Wayward>i expect the hardware is up to the task, we just need some genius motivated coders to design something dedicated to book scanning
06:07:06<Wayward>where 30 million humans can scan 4 billion books before feeding them to the fireplace
06:07:42<@JAA>Like a book scanner?
06:07:54<Wayward>book scanners are really terrible
06:08:03<@JAA>Less terrible than this smartphone approach.
06:08:16<Wayward>"oh look, i can see the words from the back side of the pages. nifty..."
06:08:23<@JAA>Unless there's a smartphone with dual identical cameras that I'm unaware of.
06:08:46<@JAA>Guess what, bleeding is an issue even when you just read a book at times.
06:09:05<@JAA>Especially with the thin paper used e.g. in US novel publications.
06:09:31<Wayward>i just think it looks better from a cellphone camera / vantage / distance / lighting
06:09:36<@JAA>(Like the common ones, not the thick bound editions.)
06:09:59<Wayward>ie, comic books / pulp fiction especially.
06:10:04<@JAA>Yeah, because those cameras are so horrible they don't truly capture what you see.
06:10:14<Wayward>then that's still better
06:10:38<@JAA>You can get rid of bleeding on simple text with trivial image processing as well.
06:10:54<@JAA>You can't really fix it if there are images etc. involved.
06:11:20<Wayward>like putting an IR filter on a professional camera so you don't see someone's bits and pieces through their clothing.
06:11:46<@JAA>Relevance?
06:12:11<Wayward>appropriate lighting makes a difference in image capture and bleed thru
06:12:19<Wayward>even if it's technically inferrior
06:12:26<@JAA>Yes, obviously.
06:12:43<@JAA>Which the 'just use a smartphone' approach also doesn't solve.
06:13:22<Wayward>which the "i just deleted scanner bed copies of comic books and replaced them with smarphone revisions because they sucked so bad and i'm glad someone took the time to do it with their cellphone."
06:13:35<@JAA>Don't get me wrong, such a scanning thing could be useful. But more for mediocre wide coverage than for proper archival.
06:14:13<@JAA>Yup, scanners are horrible with bleed-through.
06:20:13<Wayward>also, with video quality as it is, i imagine you could solve most 3D issues by taking 8K video of the book and page flipping, then compare frames for context of depth
06:20:40<@JAA>Same issue with curvature.
06:20:46<Wayward>that's what i meant.
06:21:07<Wayward>frame 5 compared against frame 16 will tell you everything you need to know for correcting curvature
06:21:26<@JAA>Maybe, if you know how the camera moved between those frames.
06:21:27<Wayward>it's like having two cameras spaces inches apart
06:21:35<Wayward>*spaced
06:21:47<@JAA>Acceleration sensor readings are very noisy.
06:21:59<Wayward>don't need that
06:22:25<@JAA>So how do you get the movement distance?
06:22:29<Wayward>have you never seen augmented reality sensing? nobody uses accelerometers anymore ever
06:23:03<@JAA>I have, and that's nowhere near the accuracy (yet?) for this correction.
06:23:09<Wayward>you learn depth of field from modeling the image
06:23:45<Wayward>same way your brain models the STAR WARS intro roll
06:25:05<Wayward>maybe a book with intentionally wavy text (from the author) would suffer
06:25:34<@JAA>The reason that roll works is that it's perfectly rectangular (in the plane it's moving in).
06:25:44<@JAA>So yeah, I suppose it would work for content that is rectangular.
06:25:59<@JAA>If the text is left-aligned but not right-aligned, it'll get messy.
06:26:19<@JAA>And for images, apart from most comics I suppose, as well.
06:27:56<@JAA>In any case, you're getting 'good enough for general use' copies with this, not 'ok, we can destroy all physical copies now' ones.
06:28:22<Wayward>yet, snapchat filters are rather pretty good, and subjects they're working with not at all rectangular
07:11:19LeighR (LeighR) joins
07:18:20godane1 joins
07:20:55godane quits [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
07:23:05LeGoupil joins
07:25:56hooway joins
07:52:14sliccricc (sliccricc) joins
08:21:16Shrinks9927 joins
08:21:27Shrinks9927 quits [Remote host closed the connection]
08:21:54Shrinks99 joins
08:22:27<Ryz>Shrinks99, huh, 'neomorphism', so this is gradient 2.0, or maybe 'smart gradient' :p
08:22:37<Sanqui>WIP toying with an idea to make "data archeology" accessible in a skeumorphic way https://etc.sanqui.net/floppies/build/
08:23:53<Shrinks99>It's what people have coined the term for "realistic shadows and materials are back".... I don't necessarily agree with it and I also disagree with how skeuomorphism has been reduced to "the thing on the computer looks like the thing in real life"
08:24:10<Shrinks99>anyways, I've got design opinions :P
08:25:15<Shrinks99>Also cool website Sanqui
08:26:01<Sanqui>heh yeah I'm not a designer
08:26:22<Sanqui>I just like it when my buttons have outlines, you know? and ideally depth
08:27:21<Ryz>Heheh, for the term 'smart gradient' that I came up out of the blue from seeing examples of 'neomorphism' from search results in the image section is because, well, more realistic shadowing or gradient that looks realistic, since technology has gotten closer and closer to replicating real life o:
08:28:12<Ryz>I would imagine to make it more real it would require some graphics processing from a GPU, especially when reflecting other stuff around those kinds of imagery
08:28:40<Shrinks99>Ehh, depends on the process used to make it OFC
08:28:55<Shrinks99>If you're doing things with real 3D and raytracing than yeah absolutely
08:29:59<Sanqui>css gradients are more powerful than you think :P
08:30:17<Shrinks99>Yeah but they also aren't linearized or properly colour managed
08:30:21<Sanqui>and css can also do animations and pseudo-3d, like my floppies are done with just css
08:31:36<Ryz>Mm, in that case Shrinks99, seeing the examples a bit longer now, it seems to be a hybrid of minimalism and realism (although these two terms, especially the latter is too vague...word-wise)
08:36:00<Shrinks99>Yeah but I like that description better than "neomorphism" :P
08:37:12<Shrinks99>Also, if you don't know about linearization & why it's important when creating gradients here's a fun one that will ruin almost all the gradients you'll see from now on https://twitter.com/Shrinks99/status/1339314848694480900
08:37:59<Sanqui>I make my gradients in gimp ,'D
08:38:21<Shrinks99>Yeah GIMP is unfortunately especially bad for colour management :(
08:38:33<Shrinks99>very unlucky
08:38:33<Sanqui>it's the leading reason for shitty gradients the lack of dithering resulting in banding?
08:38:56<Shrinks99>Naw, it's the lack of working with a gamma curve of 1 as the working space
08:39:07<Shrinks99>and instead working with (usually) a gamma curve of 2.2
08:39:14<Sanqui>even if you do dither nicely, jpeg will ruin your colors
08:39:39<Shrinks99>so 0.5 is not actually 0.5 math wise and colour interpolation is all messed up
08:39:59<Shrinks99>what you're talking about is a bit-depth issue that usually comes with 8-bit images
08:40:08<Shrinks99>it's also a problem :P
08:40:11<Sanqui>yeah I understand the gamma issue
08:40:25<Sanqui>I've worked with game boy color graphics which have a much lighter gamma
08:40:33<Sanqui>but it's often neglected
08:40:44<Ryz>Gonna be honest, I tend to read visual stuff the people interpret it as good or bad as more of a stylization or art direction choice >>;
08:40:48<Sanqui>leading to oversaturated representations of the graphics in rgb
08:40:55<Shrinks99>Absolutely no idea what colourspace the gameboy colour uses
08:41:02<Shrinks99>would be interested
08:41:35<Sanqui>emulator devs are sometimes even hush about their color correction algorithms
08:41:44<Sanqui>https://pokefan531.tumblr.com/post/176856035828/all-the-comparisons-of-most-software-color
08:41:48<Ryz>Like, there's people who don't like the wiggleyness of the PlayStation 1 graphics back then, but developers take advantage of the wiggleness of the polygons in how the graphics or imagery is rendered~
08:41:51<Sanqui>this is an old article but shows the sheer variance
08:42:21<Shrinks99>Normally I'd agree Ryz but this is more of a physics problem than a stylistic choice IMO, most people I've encountered don't even know they have other options
08:43:03<Sanqui>obviously there are differences between hardware revisions too so there is no 'one true game boy color color space'
08:43:17<Shrinks99>This is interesting
08:43:39<Sanqui>ultimately it's up to preference but, if you forget about it entirely you get acid yellow pikachu
08:43:40<Sanqui>lol
08:44:29<Sanqui>https://twitter.com/liji32/status/1227353967644094464
08:45:33<Shrinks99>I imagine Nintendo must have had some sort of standard for devs to work within
08:45:39<Shrinks99>or maybe not :P
08:45:57<Sanqui>they did have a standard but it amounted to "don't make trees blue"
08:45:58<Sanqui>lol
08:46:07<Shrinks99>haha yeah, checks out
08:46:22<Sanqui>there's another problem, the original game boy advance came out without a backlight, and in fact the screen was extremely dim
08:46:25<Sanqui>under most conditions
08:46:42<Sanqui>resulting in game developers compensating with extra bright palettes
08:46:51<Sanqui>this can be particularly seen on games that got ported from the SNES
08:46:54<Ryz>Mm, in that case Shrinks99, is there a drawback of having 32 bit mode for making the gradient stuff look more proper or in line physics wise? I can only imagine maybe more processing time but I'm not too fully sure
08:47:14<Sanqui>https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UNuzx9HY3Oo/maxresdefault.jpg
08:47:31<Ryz>So hurts, so pale~ <#>;
08:47:43<Shrinks99>Wonder if there's a LUT or something you can apply to get it back to the original
08:47:56<Sanqui>https://preview.redd.it/mbxh0ygcjt131.png?auto=webp&s=ac7f051481c927b7af56c71dc3ae413ac9f415bb
08:48:02<Shrinks99>Or just inject the old sprites would probably be better
08:48:04<Sanqui>as you can see in this picture, people make patches to "restore" the palettes
08:48:27<Shrinks99>yeah there ya go
08:48:30<Shrinks99>looks much nicer
08:48:58<Sanqui>but still, many questions crop up, like, is it ~true to the original~
08:49:25<Sanqui>if you want to represent a screenshot of the videogame online, would you use the bright one or a corrected one? because if you don't use the bright one I might not even recognize it as the GBA version
08:49:40<Sanqui>complex issue
08:49:52<Shrinks99>I'm in the corrected camp, that's probably what the devs intended you to see
08:49:57<Shrinks99>but that's my opinion
08:50:17<Shrinks99>also Ryz with modern hardware there are few downsides but yeah, 32 bit is more computationally expensive and that's why it wasn't always this way and part of the reason we have all these problems today!
08:50:20<Sanqui>we're getting into "old games were designed for CRTs" territorry
08:50:29<Shrinks99>Love me a good CRT shader
08:50:40<Sanqui>https://twitter.com/CRTpixels/status/1379134688049123333
08:50:58<Shrinks99>big fan of that account
08:51:11<Shrinks99>still haven't found a good way of running video through a CRT shader
08:51:19<Shrinks99>or frame sequences more accurately
08:51:31<Sanqui>this one is really good and practical https://int10h.org/blog/2021/01/simulating-crt-monitors-ffmpeg-pt-1-color/
08:51:37<Wayward>i wonder just how good those custom FPGA sega genesis / super nintendo not-an-emulator full hardware replica consoles compare to emulators on a rasp pi
08:51:45<Sanqui>but not realtime
08:52:15<Shrinks99>holy crap this is exactly what I've always wanted!
08:52:21<Wayward>they boast sharp 1080/4k upscaling
08:52:46<Sanqui>:D
08:53:11<Shrinks99>Sanqui You've made my day :D
08:53:22<Shrinks99>I gotta hang out in the archive team IRC more often lmao
08:53:49<Ryz>Heheheh :p
08:54:00<Sanqui>lots of people with a wide variety of skills and interest here
08:54:05<Sanqui>not to boast or anything ha ha
08:54:20<Ryz>Oh yeah, I think there should be more focus on archiving design websites, especially personal blogs and all that jazz~ o#o;
08:54:57<Sanqui>I'm starting to think my masters thesis has got to be on something digital archival related to keep me engaged
08:55:03<Sanqui>still need to come up with a topic come this fall
08:55:34<Shrinks99>Well hey, I'm somewhat busy at the moment but I owe you all some of my time at some point in the future for your help with my program's websites :P
08:55:42<Shrinks99>I also need to go to sleep
08:55:53<Ryz>Me too, catch the z's ~@~;
08:55:57<Shrinks99>thank you once again for rescuing my shit <3
08:56:01<Sanqui>haha, yeah, sorry, classic, I'm europe here
08:56:17<Sanqui>talk to you in the future!
08:56:22<Shrinks99>I'll be back eventually!
08:56:31Shrinks99 quits [Remote host closed the connection]
08:57:54Arcorann (Arcorann) joins
08:59:54<Ryz>On the shaders stuff, big sigh, that's what I like about the CRTs, the pixel art or the graphics back then had to be filtered through that glass thing itself, tis before LCDs and other solutions for making cheaper TVs were one <#>;
09:09:36<Wayward>different CRTs / monitors also had different sub pixel characteristics
09:12:05<Wayward>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Pixel_geometry_01_Pengo.jpg
09:13:58<Wayward>not to mention projectors
11:18:14Ryz quits [Remote host closed the connection]
11:18:58Ryz (Ryz) joins
11:51:41BlueMaxima quits [Client Quit]
11:57:03<yano>https://dontasktoask.com/
12:33:05Ruthalas (Ruthalas) joins
12:34:47Ruthalas quits [Client Quit]
12:35:08Ruthalas (Ruthalas) joins
12:39:28<@EggplantN>Uh Yano? Are you around at all
12:50:54etnguyen03 (etnguyen03) joins
12:52:41<yano>EggplantN: huh
12:52:51<yano>i wasn't sharing it specific to any conversation going on
12:54:29<yano>i find interesting links and share them in here, my apologies if the timing was off
13:08:03<@EggplantN>😂 I was doing what it said don’t do
13:11:10<yano>oh lol
13:11:21<yano>🤣🤣
13:14:10<lunik1>https://xyproblem.info/
13:32:57Iki joins
13:40:58@Fusl quits [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
13:43:31Fusl (Fusl) joins
13:43:31@ChanServ sets mode: +o Fusl
13:53:46blankie (blankie) joins
14:03:20sec^nd quits [Remote host closed the connection]
14:03:49sec^nd (second) joins
14:58:32Arcorann quits [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
15:35:22aleph quits [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
15:36:37aleph joins
15:49:17godane2 joins
15:51:49godane1 quits [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
15:52:21Iki quits [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
16:05:49blankie quits [Remote host closed the connection]
17:22:41spirit joins
17:57:40godane2 quits [Client Quit]
18:24:32spirit quits [Client Quit]
18:33:22DogsRNice (Webuser299) joins
19:03:01sec^nd quits [Remote host closed the connection]
19:03:31sec^nd (second) joins
20:23:05Iki joins
21:24:54Iki quits [Remote host closed the connection]
21:35:23LeGoupil quits [Client Quit]
21:57:28LeighR quits [Client Quit]
23:23:09hooway quits [Client Quit]
23:48:49BlueMaxima joins

HomeSearchPrevious dayNext day