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15:56:59<aaeaston>Hi.
15:57:14<Vukky>Hi indeed
15:57:56<aaeaston>Yesterday was the first time I have successfully used IRC for anything...
15:59:45<Vukky>congratulations!
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16:50:26<aaeaston>Does anyone here ever sleep?
16:50:31<aaeaston>Just curious.
16:52:09<Jake>Sometimes!
16:52:18<@JAA>Allegedly.
16:53:04<aaeaston>Cool.
17:00:30<lunik1>most aren't fans, dreams are notoriously hard to archive
17:01:12<aaeaston>lunik1: fair enough.
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17:05:09<G4te_Keep3r>what a project that would be
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17:08:06<aaeaston_>Say, does the Archive Team have Matrix?
17:08:51<@EggplantN>no we dont but its something i'd like to explore
17:09:06<aaeaston_>Basically decentralized Discord.
17:09:17<@EggplantN>yeah i've begun using it for another community
17:09:28<aaeaston_>Cool cool.
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17:14:25<Sanqui>EggplantN: feel free to involve me in any matrix tests, we're currently setting it up for another community too, and exploring the new spaces feature
17:16:23<@EggplantN>it would need to be discussed with others
17:16:26<@EggplantN>but yeah
17:16:30<@EggplantN>anyway what community Sanqui
17:16:36<Sanqui>gbdev
17:16:43<Sanqui>gbdev.io
17:17:05<Sanqui>we're currently bridging two discord channels, eventually all of them
17:17:19<yano>neat
17:17:22<Sanqui>to reduce reliance on a proprietary chat platform & throw weight behind matrix
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18:09:25<@hook54321>EggplantN: In my opinion the options are to move over completely or to wait until hackint possibly has a matrix bridge again.
18:10:07<Sanqui>is running our own bridge not an option?
18:10:09<@hook54321>I think it's neat, but if it's going to fragment conversations then it's a no.
18:10:21<@hook54321>Sanqui: hackint doesn't allow it
18:10:41<@hook54321>https://hackint.org/archive#20181028_Matrix_Bridging_Sunset
18:11:21<Sanqui>my understanding is hackint doesn't allow a "puppetting" bridge, i.e. one that would use an irc account for each user, but they should be fine with a classic bridge (one user that posts <name> message)
18:11:34<Sanqui>I'll try to verify my theory though
18:11:45@hook54321 shrugs
18:11:59<@hook54321>I find the non-puppetting ones annoying anyways
18:12:31<@hook54321>this is all just my opinion though
18:13:06<Sanqui>your opinion is welcome!
18:18:23<@JAA>Yeah, agreed, those bridges are very annoying.
18:20:12<@JAA>Ask EggplantN how much we will bully anyone setting one up. :-)
18:23:57<@EggplantN>True
19:06:04godane (godane) joins
19:14:45<m0nika>I know some of you hate Discord, but maybe we can get a Discord bridge to reduce friction and keep voluneers who doesn't want to use IRC for whatever reason in the loop
19:15:00<m0nika>Maybe a chat or announcements tab in the warrior appliance?
19:15:17<Vukky>a chat tab would be neat
19:16:44<thuban>inner-platform effect
19:19:14<@JAA>Why Discord sucks and should be avoided at all cost: https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=User:JustAnotherArchivist/Discord
19:19:19<@HCross>m0nika: we did that and JAA got angry
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19:32:39<Wayward>> it has no data migration story. <--- do we count people who exfiltrate amazing quantities of voice chat recordings?
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19:43:30<@JAA>That sentence does not mean that there is no way to get your hands on the data but that they don't provide an official way and actively hinder unofficial efforts.
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19:44:55<Wayward>It's obvious snark. Their privacy controls are nil, and they retain voice recordings for way longer than they need or ought to.
19:45:59systwi (systwi) joins
19:46:05<Sanqui>heck, they even banned my scraper once already, though I'm working on making more changes to avoid detection.
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19:47:58<Ajay>They do have a data export that is surprisingly detailed
19:48:24<Ajay>It contains all timestamps for going online/offline/starting game, etc.
19:58:11<Sanqui>yeah, they had to implement a data export for gdpr reasons
19:58:17<Sanqui>so they seem to literally blurt out everything they have for those
19:58:30<Sanqui>but it's limited to your personal data, so you even lose the other side of any conversation
19:58:49<Sanqui>personally, when I think IM logs, I expect to see both :P
20:00:11systwi (systwi) joins
20:00:13<Wayward>I don't think even facebook lets you download both sides of the conversation, just your own insane ramblings
20:00:38<@JAA>That, and there are also very fun stories about how they get around that by locking accounts and deleting the associated data before the required response time for GDPR requests.
20:00:53<@JAA>'Whoops, sorry, no data on you on our servers.'
20:00:53systwi quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:01:18<Wayward>which is a fair bit better than it used to be. if someone or some page or some group blocked you, you would lose complete access to the ability to read/edit/delete any words or images you had previously posted.
20:01:40<Wayward>now if someone blocks you, you can go through your activity log and at least delete stuff
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20:47:13<aaeaston>👋
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21:00:02<atphoenix>EggplantN, count me in on Matrix
21:00:25<@EggplantN>its not as simple as that :P it would be nice to look into but as highlighted above has tons of issues
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21:06:51<atphoenix>considering how hard it was to get AT over to hackint, I will not be holding my breath. But if it happens, I'm in favor.
21:08:52<Wayward>I thought people wanted to leave EFNet due to netsplits/outages. Matrix is ammusingly flakey.
21:10:39<atphoenix>Matrix has resume/replay and sync and federation. What is the matrix flakiness you speak of?
21:11:41<Wayward>https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php?year=2020
21:12:24<Wayward>look at the second graph down. that represents channel counts on each irc network. the top line represents freenode. each spike is when Matrix had a server outage, and all the non-existant matrix-only channels became empty because of it.
21:12:40<Wayward>at least 8 or more last year
21:12:47<Wayward>one just this month
21:14:02<Wayward>and yes, Matrix is responsible for 15~20 thousand fake/useless irc channels on freenode
21:14:19<@hook54321>matrix users get auto-kicked from freenode after over a certain amount of inactivity
21:14:41<Wayward>hook54321, naa
21:14:47<@hook54321>fake channels? what?
21:15:02<Wayward>connect to freenode and seek out some matrix channels
21:15:18<Wayward>it's just thousands of channels of brain dead drones with no user behind the keyboard
21:15:28<Wayward>and no regular freenode users in them
21:15:43<@hook54321>do you mean channels with mostly matrix users in them?
21:15:45<Wayward>utterly no words are spoken, never ever, even though they have 500 "users" in them
21:15:57<Wayward>correct
21:16:04<@hook54321>I have no idea what you're talking about
21:16:10<Wayward>sorry
21:16:35<@hook54321>They have to be active somewhere otherwise they get kicked
21:16:40<Wayward>incorrecto
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21:17:13<@hook54321>It auto-kicks after a certain amount of time, look into it.
21:17:19<Wayward>but it doesn't
21:17:23<Wayward>i don't now what else to say
21:17:43<Wayward>they only all disconnect all at once when there's an outage
21:17:44<@hook54321>¯\_(ツ)_/¯
21:17:58<Wayward>then slowly feed back online one at a time
21:21:31<atphoenix>I am not talking about problems with IRC<->Matrix bridges. Are there such problems just on the Matrix side?
21:22:02crispyalice2 (crispyalice2) joins
21:23:15<@hook54321>it depends on what homeserver you join, it'll probably be better once Dendrite is "done" though.
21:23:31<aaeaston>atphoenix: Here is a pros and cons list:
21:24:12<aaeaston>Pros: E2E encryption, free-of-charge, open source
21:26:38<aaeaston>Cons: Messages stored unlike IRC
21:26:49<aaeaston>Not sure about too many cons with a bridge over there
21:28:20<Ryz>...I see Toys for Bob (who made Spyro Regnited and Crash 4) might have turned into a Call of Duty support studio: https://twitter.com/ToysForBob/status/1387854364157509634
21:30:50<atphoenix>messages stored is a pro in my book as it allows me to disconnect/resume. Besides IRC is stored too, by most IRC clients.
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21:31:21<atphoenix>only difference is I lose messages during disconnects and reboots
21:32:48<aaeaston>Ultimately no cons for doing a Matrix bridge
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21:37:27<Wayward>discussions of legally ambiguous things like copying intellectual property should mainly be relegated to ephemeral (automatically deleted and lost to the ether) irc chat.
21:37:40<Wayward>if you're not here to see it, it never happened.
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21:39:18<atphoenix>if you think what you say online, even in IRC, is guaranteed ephemeral, you're sorely mistaken
21:39:26<@hook54321>IRC clients don't automatically delete stuff
21:39:35<aaeaston>Some do hook54321
21:39:36<Wayward>i didn't say guaranteed.
21:39:54<@hook54321>aaeaston: ah, huh. still, most don't though.
21:40:08<atphoenix>even the assumption is flawed. Even in apps that say they have disappearing messages.
21:40:19<aaeaston>Ex. My client, phoenix's client, etc
21:40:21<Wayward>but i can tell you that it'll be a real bitch for me to request and magic up the conversation that took place in #youtubearchive on efnet 4 years and 3 days ago.
21:40:40<Wayward>and would require the cooperation of the people whose names where in the nicklist on that day
21:40:59<Wayward>they can all choose to deny my request
21:41:29<Wayward>that's irc channel autonomy
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21:57:06<Ajay>It's technically the same for matrix if you enable "view history since joined"
21:57:44<Ajay>And then also enable e2e
21:58:04<aaeaston>Good point Ajay
21:58:07<Ajay>So the home server can't access it
21:58:52<Ajay>aaeaston: the lounge is a webapp
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21:59:33<aaeaston_>Ohhhh right
21:59:40<aaeaston_>...
21:59:52<aaeaston_>Not sure what happened there
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22:00:40<aaeaston>Sometimes the client sends me to aaeaston_
22:00:54<aaeaston>Not sure why
22:01:00<atphoenix>that happens when the IRC server says other username is in use
22:01:29<aaeaston>Hmm, so it forgets that it is in use and sends me to underscore.
22:01:37<aaeaston>I'll need to report that.
22:01:49<atphoenix>no, not a bug
22:01:55<aaeaston>?
22:01:55<Ajay>If you are using two clients at once, only one can use the nick
22:02:04<atphoenix>it's the *server* rejecting you
22:02:17<atphoenix>then the client tries with a different name
22:02:28<aaeaston>No, I mean the client opening two instances at once.
22:03:01<atphoenix>if you register your nick I think it happens less
22:03:12<aaeaston>I did indeed register this nick.
22:03:26<aaeaston>I'm going to try the Lounge, let's see where that gets me.
22:03:30aaeaston quits [Client Quit]
22:05:58aaeaston joins
22:06:20<aaeaston>Welp.
22:07:05<aaeaston>Is there a instance of The Lounge for hackint somewhere?
22:07:34<atphoenix>none that a know of for general access
22:07:58<aaeaston>I'm stuck with this client for now.
22:08:30<atphoenix>maybe run a VM on a always-on computer?
22:08:47<aaeaston>Neither of which I have atphoenix
22:09:29<atphoenix>ppl rent cloud servers for this kind of purpose
22:09:38<aaeaston>True
22:09:55BlueMaxima quits [Client Quit]
22:10:55<atphoenix>I setup an old computer for this purpose myself. Though in terms of electricity cost, I might be better off renting a server somewhere but I like my stuff being on my equipment.
22:11:12<aaeaston>Good point.
22:13:00<Wayward><aaeaston> No, I mean the client opening two instances at once. <-- you only have one client instance, it just takes the server 600 seconds to recognize the TCP session is stale and discards the zombie connection.
22:13:14<Wayward>for those 10 minutes, your nickname is "in use" by your corpse.
22:13:26<aaeaston>Ah ok Wayward
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22:25:07<aaeaston>Hmmm
22:25:26<aaeaston>There are two types of bridges in Matrix
22:25:40<aaeaston>I can literally use it as a IRC cliebt
22:25:45<aaeaston>*client
22:26:13<aaeaston>Or I can "plumb" a room to a channel
22:26:26<aaeaston>I might use the former to connect.
22:26:36<aaeaston>Trying it out.
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22:40:19<aaeaston>This hurts.
22:40:21<aaeaston>https://hackint.org/archive#20181028_Matrix_Bridging_Sunset
22:40:53<aaeaston>I could prolly code my own bridge, however, that would be if the admins approve of it.
22:41:08<@Kaz>(please don't)
22:41:22<aaeaston>(I won't)
22:41:31<Wayward>i hope the reason harddrive prices are skyrocketing is because elon musk is building his own AWS hosting service.
22:41:39<@EggplantN>nope
22:41:41<aaeaston>Wait what?
22:41:43<@EggplantN>its chia
22:43:38<aaeaston>What does chia have to do with hard drives EggplantN
22:43:44<Wayward>leave it to elon musk to use crypto stonk as a cover for buying up thousands of harddrives
22:43:59<@EggplantN>https://www.chia.net/
22:44:07<@EggplantN>its a crypto mining crap thing
22:44:09<@EggplantN>uses drives
22:44:14<aaeaston>Oh
22:44:18<@EggplantN>its sent disk pricing through the roof
22:44:29<aaeaston>I think Tesla will become the new Google
22:44:33<aaeaston>And Amazon
22:44:35<aaeaston>Combined
22:44:38aaeaston quits [Client Quit]
22:45:01<Wayward>if they build chia server farms at the poles, we could speed up the earth's rotation.
22:45:17aaeaston joins
22:46:08<LeighR>ch-ch-ch-chia
22:46:56<aaeaston>*Elon intensifies*
22:51:03<aaeaston>Time to hunt down dying websites.
22:51:07<aaeaston>Toodles.
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23:06:37<aaeaston_>Ahhhh this client.
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23:11:35<Ajay>aaeaston: I think it's mainly multi-user or public bridges that they don't want due to that mass-disconnect issue
23:11:44<Ajay>for matrix
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23:32:44<@hook54321>Ajay: there also used to be an issue where people would rejoin on the matrix side but not on IRC, not sure if it's still an issue though.
23:33:50<Ajay>on mine, I disabled the bot nick, so it only connects with one IRC nick, so I don't think it can happen on mine
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23:46:32<aaeaston_>👋
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