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11:24:18<steering>firefox's new error pages are um... ok
11:24:26<steering>connection closed -> "sent back an empty page"
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12:58:33<justauser>SSL errors can be brought back, for now, by flipping "security.certerrors.felt-privacy-v1". Others will probably need cURL to diagnose from now on.
12:58:33<justauser>And use ESR. It's worth the trouble.
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13:09:35<justauser>ESR++
13:09:36<eggdrop>[karma] 'ESR' now has 1 karma!
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14:26:07<justauser>https://beige.party/@Lana/116065326703126337
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16:27:20<nukke>https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/116351998782539414
16:27:36<nukke>Genuinely what the fuck is going on man
16:27:50<nukke>>Tuesday will be Power Plant Day, and Bridge Day, all wrapped up in one, in Iran. There will be nothing like it!!! Open the Fuckin’ Strait, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in Hell - JUST WATCH! Praise be to Allah. President DONALD J. TRUMP
16:28:03<nukke>This is a real tweet.
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17:43:35<that_lurker>Almost like hes an incompetent leader
17:44:50<that_lurker>Now that he finally found a way to inconvenience everyone in America maybe something will be done to stop him
17:45:29<that_lurker>Though they are still saying Biden or Obama caused the rice of fuel to go up
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17:54:22<@arkiver>a little note that channels of Archive Team are for archiving and discussions around archiving
17:54:28<@arkiver>not wider political discussions
17:55:08<@arkiver>of course, a political message may lead to endangering data, in which case it's good to consider it
17:55:53<@arkiver>for general political discussions/opinions, there are plenty of other places elsewhere on the internet for that
17:57:09<steering>arkiver for president!!!
17:57:16<steering>:P
17:57:34<that_lurker>yeah. I did not take it further.
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19:14:10<nukke>my bad mr. arkiver. it's of course (very, very) tangentially related to AT activities because drive prices are gonna skyrocket even more
19:14:24<nukke>NAND and DRAM and raw materials
19:14:31nukke coughs
19:19:19klea checks the topic.
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19:19:34<klea>This specific channel is for not archival related stuff specifically :P
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19:39:21<nulldata>Alright here's another controversial debate, but non-political: cold ketchup or warm ketchup?
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19:48:24<that_lurker>cold
19:49:04<that_lurker>or maybe also room temp
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20:29:12<icedice>I don't suppose it's possible to get an @archiveteam.org email address?
20:29:35<icedice>Proton Mail's system has "temporarily restricted access" because of "suspicious logins targeting my account" and want me to "verify my identity" which would usually involve a recovery email address or phone number which I don't have, so I'll have to take it with Proton support and prove I'm the owner by other means (password, account creation date, etc.)
20:29:47<icedice>And the account will get deleted for inactivity on April 9th
20:30:15<icedice>I have a feeling it might be related to me sending out emails to forums admins asking for Imgur links for that Archiveteam project using the same email template and that I didn't space them out enough so Proton's system thinks I'm a spammer. Yandex Mail at least started blocking emails to that Proton Mail account because of that
20:30:36<icedice>So my best shot would be to explain that I did it for an Archiveteam project and that I'll be more careful in the future and I think having an icedice@archiveteam.org email address would be helpful in the appeal
20:30:49<icedice>Luckily I pretty much only used that email address for Archiveteam and hackint, but it'd still be nice to save it
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21:32:50<steering>proton--
21:32:52<eggdrop>[karma] 'proton' now has -1 karma!
21:46:46<nukke>I hate to defend proton, but it makes sense to lock an account if they see multiple IPs accessing it.
21:47:16<nukke>Maybe setting a timeout would make more sense than asking for verification
21:48:20<kline>does it? i access stuff from multiple ips all the time. home, work, cell connection, airport wifi, my partners house, etc
21:49:06<kline>you might want to trigger a 2fa flow but ips vary a lot, dont they?
21:51:54<nukke>There's a difference between IPs within similar (geo) blocks vs IPs from all over the world using a VPN
21:52:20<nukke>Or a mixture of VPN. Since icedice mentioned AT projects I'm assuming he's using VPS?
21:52:26<kline>fair
21:52:56<kline>i dont really like proton in any case, id never reccommend them
21:53:30<nukke>What do you recommend?
21:55:13<kline>depends what you want to achieve - proton markets itself for multiple use cases/threat models and i think each has a better alternative, but im not always sure what it is
21:55:46<kline>i think their business practices are unseemly as well
21:58:20<kline>but it runs the spectrum of gmail, to self host, to bring you own domain eg migadu, to disposables over tor
22:03:59<kline>for their business practices, they present themselves as securely encrypted but then keep copies of your private keys in a way that be converged with your data on the network (which is how their webmail works). this would be just about tolerable if they had some kind of strategy to prevent the release of them, but they (rightly) submit themselves to warrants as we saw with at
22:04:01<kline>least 2 cases of activists having all their activity logged and data turned over
22:05:13<kline>im not suggesting that they are immune from warrants, but if you keep your customers private keys without structuring your business or technology to make it impossible for you to retrieve those keys under duress, you are irresponsible in marketing yourself in a way that suggests you are secure and private
22:05:48<kline>further, they lock people in by refusing to allow users to access standard, open protocols like IMAP. thumbs down from me.
22:06:22<that_lurker>have they given actual user data to authorities yet or just metadata?
22:07:04<steering>yeah, proton collects a lot more info than they admit
22:08:40<steering>(usually under the guise of "recovery" and more accurately to prevent themselves being used by various kinds of spammers)
22:09:45<steering>so yeah if you don't want to give them info it's "set up an account at least one week before you need it"
22:10:27<that_lurker>hey that is better than yahoos thing :-P
22:12:47<that_lurker>but yeah if you use proton then it's best to read the privacy policy to see what they collect and not
22:13:49<steering>i mean, i don't trust privacy policies :P
22:14:15<steering>i think proton may claim that they don't retain verification info after it's completed even but like... do i believe that?
22:14:19<that_lurker>They are a swiss company so they are by forced by law to not lie in them
22:14:44<steering>how does law know if they're lying?
22:15:42<that_lurker>law makes them liable if found out
22:15:58<that_lurker>and audits should find stuff like that
22:16:35<steering>yeah, maybe
22:16:47<that_lurker>though if you cannot trust a company then self host everything :-P
22:16:50<kline><steering> i think proton may claim that they don't retain verification info after it's completed even but like... do i believe that?
22:17:06<steering>that's like trusting a vpn because they say they have audited no logs ;)
22:17:12<kline>they retain your gpg private key, so draw your own conclusions
22:17:57<steering>i don't even care so much about that considering the fact that they control the code i would use to decrypt
22:18:07<kline>i think this is unacceptable if you have demonstrated that you cannot structure yourself to protect that information so you can honestly say to the courts you cant access the keys
22:18:20<that_lurker>steering: well the audits are done and released by the auditors so it's not the companies saying what the audits say
22:19:24<kline>https://proton.me/legal/transparency suggests they contested <10% of email warrants last year. it doesnt even say they won, just that 90% were accepted as in, 10% were contested, and an unknown number (0? all?) were ruled to be acceptable when contested
22:19:52<kline>sorry, not <10%, ~10%
22:20:10<steering>that_lurker: i've been involved in too many audits to care what the audits say :D
22:21:41<that_lurker>kline: Not many email providers out there that can go againts the legal system of the country they are stationed in
22:22:11<that_lurker>though I think they are still thinking about moving to a different country becaus of the legal pressures
22:22:28<kline>that_lurker, im not saying that protonmail should go against the swiss legal system, im saying they should structure their tech/operations so that they can honestly say that its not possible to comply with requests
22:23:07<kline>that is to say, they should accept and comply with requests, but provide no information by virtue of they fact they do not hold it, or cannot access it
22:24:07<steering>the only email service worth calling "private" to me would basically have to be crypto-paid (ugh) and imap/smtp to decrypt locally IMO
22:24:19<kline>in the meantime, they put out chaff saying they do not comply with legal requests from foreign agencies, only swiss agencies (and neglect that the foreign agencies can just ask the swiss to represent on their behalf)
22:25:12<kline>to say "we dont give data to the fbi" when you do, just via a domestic intermediary, is misleading and dishonest. its technically correct while allowing their users to hold an incorrect understanding to protons commercial benefit
22:26:23<kline>anyway, ive said enough, its wildly off topic and just a pet hate
22:27:02<steering>its on topic for -ot ;)
22:28:22<steering>and yeah they spend a lot of time and words on claims that are technically or mostly true but not as reassuring as they sound
22:29:30<that_lurker>yeah. Proton should word that differently. Though it still means that they comply only to requests that have gone past the swiss gov so that is an upside I quess
22:34:22<kline>they had nearly 10k requests last year, thats 27 legal requests a day for proton alone. i dont know how the swiss judiciary is structured, but i am confident that the dual pressures of relationship management and budgets mean this is essentially a rubberstamping exercise
22:35:34<kline>(just like every other cyber warrants court in the west, it seems - its certainly not a unique issue to switzerland)
22:37:11<that_lurker>might be true and that could explain the 10% of contested warrants as they might have been let through but not follow swiss law
22:37:56<kline>... that in house counsel identified, which again would be processing 27 requests a day
22:38:50<kline>theres a startups worth of employees spread across the swiss state that is just dedicated to touching proton email warrants, if they spend more than a few minutes
22:40:18<kline>at 27/day, if each request takes 30 mins to process, then thats 13.5h of work that needs done a day, or 2 workers (out of 3-4) at each stage of the process
22:41:56<kline>4 workers at the police liaison, 4 members of the judiciary making rulings and issuing local warrants, 4 members of counsel at protonmail determining if they should be appealed or such, 4 members of staff actioning the requests (activating logging, assembling data, sending results)
22:42:39<that_lurker>well you do have 10 to 30 days to process them and I would say they are not coming that fast in reality
22:43:24<kline>the pipeline delay isnt relevant, whether or not you process them on day 1 or day 30, you still need to average 27 a day
22:44:07<kline>i expect they dont get done on weekends or holidays, and instead they actually throughput 35 or so a day during weekdays
22:45:23<kline>(likewise, there are peaks and troughs of when requests come in, and as such on busy days some requests back up, and on some days there are few new requests so you get the queue down. but you still have to average 27/day across the year to get meet the numbers in the transparency report)
22:47:00<that_lurker>yeah that is true. Would be nice to know how many people from the 500ish employees are legal team. Would be nice transparency thing to show people how they operate
22:47:16<kline>https://www.arbeitstage.ch/EN/arbeitstage_2025.htm - 251 working days in 2025. https://proton.me/legal/transparency - 9301 legal orders processed.
22:47:34<kline>thats 37 a day averaged throughput
22:49:03<that_lurker>for a team of lets say 10 people it's not that much work.
22:49:54<that_lurker>though as the request are not made public it's hard to know what needs to be done on each case. Other than look if it's about breaking swiss law and escalating
22:51:07<kline>proton might have 10 lawyers (probably only 7 in the office, others being sick, vacation, etc), but i doubt the judiciary has 10 judges who work 9-5 on exclusively protonmail warrant requests
22:52:00<kline>so i have a low degree of confidence that the final authority on what is permitted is able to give them the time they deserve to ensure that the claims proton makes are sincere
22:53:47<kline>so i find the statement that protonmail doesnt provide data to external law enforcement to be weak, as there is a route for them to trivially request it through a swiss intermediary, and i believe the controls when it passes the swiss checkpoint are weak
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22:55:34<kline>(if someone can provide some numbers on how many judges there are processing international wiretap warrants there are, this is probably the fulcrum of the argument. if the swiss judiciary has 1000 wiretap judges, i would feel better. if they have only 1 then it becomes trivially true that these requests are approved un-reviewed. in practice, its somewhere inbetween)
22:58:24<that_lurker>depends if they classify the type of data requestes as wiretapping
22:59:16<that_lurker>It could juts be a prosecutor-Led investigation so no judge would be needed
23:03:36<kline>im extrapolating from the UK/US structure, where this would be a judge, but i dont think the job title is important
23:04:00<kline>its a lot of requests, so either there are a lot of people dedicated to processing them, or they each get little individual attention
23:05:43<that_lurker>yeah most likely little time for each and each request is most likely investigation <number> investigating drug related maters requests data on user <name> <other info>
23:06:53<kline>from which you can reasonable say that in practice, proton routinely complies with foreign law enforcement, through the thinnest fig-leaf of swiss legal oversight
23:07:29<that_lurker>yep
23:09:07<that_lurker>would be nice to see the requests they get as most nowadays are something like "We need data on this give us all you can" and you usually give the minimum and they will most likely be fine with that
23:11:56<kline>sure
23:12:13<kline>but when youve encountered this bad faith public messaging already, i lose trust
23:13:17<that_lurker>yeah trust is everything and it is hard to get back when lost
23:16:09<that_lurker>Just realized that the email I trust the most if my work email :-P
23:16:51<that_lurker>s/if/is
23:18:48<nukke>27 law enforcement requests /day doesn't sound too bad if they manage to contest 10%
23:19:43<nukke>I do wonder what countries send the most requests
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23:20:54<that_lurker>Most likely USA as they investigate a lot of drug related crimes. in EU interpol might be high on requests as well
23:23:15<kline>nukke, i uprated it to 37, 27 was a rough count assuming the courts work 365 days a year
23:27:34<kline>that_lurker, interpol/europol are not investigative bodies, they just do liaison. theyre the body through which agencies could establish contact with the swiss to submit requests, if they didnt already have a relationship
23:30:06<kline>(they also have some coordinating functions, so that if you want to share an arrest warrant, for example, you can share it to an arrest warrant clearinghouse rather than having to submit it to every country individually. receiving countries can then view/accept/action these warrants)
23:30:37<that_lurker>oh yeah. I was thinkin Interpol would be the one to send requests for data
23:31:12<that_lurker>seems like the top 3 might be USA, Germany and India
23:48:22<nicolas17>[16:39] <nulldata> Alright here's another controversial debate, but non-political: cold ketchup or warm ketchup?
23:48:26<nicolas17>dude
23:48:42<nicolas17>I'm in a Discord server where the off-topic channel can handle political discussions in a civil manner
23:48:49<nicolas17>but try discussing food preferences and all hell breaks loose
23:49:25<nicolas17>"if you don't like <thing> you're just objectively wrong"
23:52:37<kline>if you cut a sandwich, do you get two sandwiches, or 2 halves of one sandwich?
23:56:37<that_lurker>Two sandwitches if you are paying and 2 halves if you make them yourself :-P
23:56:57<kline>hah

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