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02:24:47<nulldata>https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/15/boeing-internal-safety-concern-portal
02:25:46<icedice><nukke> I'm looking to buy a video8 player and need help with picking a good one
02:25:55<icedice>YouTube isn't the place to turn to for that
02:26:01<icedice>https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/10257-video8-hi8-digital8.html
02:26:12<nukke>icedice: I mean IRC channel :P
02:26:21<icedice>Ah
02:26:56<icedice>Well anyway, digitalFAQ Forum is the place to turn to for info on how to best digitize analogue media
02:28:31<icedice>https://www.digitalfaq.com/editorials/digital-video/professional-analog-workflow.htm
02:32:50<icedice>You'll also need a good capture card
02:34:01<icedice>https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/3200-best-ati-wonder.html
02:35:15<icedice>^ These + certain Pinnacle USB capture cards (710/510/700/500) are good for VHS, at least
02:36:00<icedice>Though the Pinnacle ones vary depending on if it's NTSC or PAL you'll want to capture and which exact revision of the capture card you get your hands on
02:37:57<icedice>https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/marketplace/8253-sale-ati-600-a.html
02:39:24<myself>I wonder if the Domesday86 folks would have recommendations, there are some serious analog-video nerds over there.
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05:40:01<fireonlive>-+rss- [recent, highly upvoted comments] goodoldneon in "Tesla Cybertruck deliveries halted for 7 days": Wonder if this is the reason: https://x.com/garageklub/status/1779571445930324456 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40040228
05:40:04<fireonlive>wow that's fun lol
05:41:20<fireonlive>https://twitter.com/garageklub/status/1779574249688387650
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11:40:14<@JAA>Toyota says hi.
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14:17:02<nulldata>Toyota - Moving Forward, Even When You Don't Want To (TM)
14:18:04<nyany>Slogans that aged poorly
14:18:30<nyany>Let's not forget Mazda's "zoom zoom"
14:19:01<nyany>If that stupid jingle wasn't living rent free in your head, I suspect that it is now
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14:47:48<@JAA>https://github.com/kelseyhightower/nocode
15:33:56<myself>nyany: I passed a mazda the other day with the license plate "IGOZOOM" or something like that :) Always loved it. I once made a tiny Mazda sticker for my Olympus C2100UZ camera...
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15:51:22<angenieux>myself: A throwback article (and comments) about your camera that was interesting to me
15:51:25<angenieux>https://www.dpreview.com/articles/8632430610/throwback-thursday-the-olympus-c2100uz
15:56:57<myself>angenieux: Yeah, I loved that camera. Standing here: https://flickr.com/photos/myself248/42757448825/ but seeing this: https://flickr.com/photos/myself248/41852429580/ was wild.
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18:10:41<yano>update your Firefox, https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/security/advisories/mfsa2024-18/
18:13:38<fireonlive>yano: ah crap, thanks
18:13:45<fireonlive>i have been putting that off... which i should never do :
18:13:46<nukke>>Telegram recently patched a vulnerability in its Windows application that allowed execution of Python scripts remotely.
18:13:47<fireonlive>:|
18:13:55<fireonlive>nukke: wat
18:14:02<nukke>fireonlive: >Telegram recently patched a vulnerability in its Windows application that allowed execution of Python scripts remotely.
18:14:06<fireonlive>:|
18:14:15<fireonlive>so much for best chat app
18:14:57<joepie91|m>telegram has a long long history of shit security wrapped in overconfident statements about its security
18:15:32<joepie91|m>do not ever trust telegram with anything you do not want to be published on some random darknet forum
18:15:53<joepie91|m>and don't join dodgy groups with it :p
18:17:04<fireonlive>i wish i could take telegram's UX and shove it up signal
18:17:11<fireonlive>or something self-hosted
18:24:26<icedice><joepie91|m> telegram has a long long history of shit security wrapped in overconfident statements about its security
18:24:46<icedice>That and the fact that the Russian government has had them backdoored for a while: https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat/
18:25:20<icedice>Binance also bent over for the Russian government
18:25:50<icedice>https://www.cryptofails.com/post/70546720222/telegrams-cryptanalysis-contest
18:26:17<icedice>Signal's CEO roasting Telegram: https://archive.today/SIl9M
18:26:54<fireonlive>i deffo don't use telegram ๐Ÿ‘€
18:27:08<fireonlive>i wish something else had its UX/notification reliability tho
18:27:09<fireonlive>:(
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18:27:22<fireonlive>i guess that's how they trap you
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18:32:49<icedice><fireonlive> i wish something else had its UX/notification reliability tho
18:33:06<icedice>Just use https://simplex.chat/ for one on one conversations
18:33:22<icedice>It's as secure and private as it gets
18:33:30<icedice>No idea if it's good for group chat though
18:34:09<fireonlive>i've been trialing that a bit, on iOS notifications are quite delayed sometimes but also it's a bit crashy atm (which... livable)
18:34:33<fireonlive>but one bug which is maybe apple's fault? is autocorrected text sometimes gets left there? so you have extra letters in places o_O
18:34:42<icedice>Session is decent on the privacy side, but kind of ass on the user interface and network speed side (since they proxy it via their own darknet) and SimpleX Chat is just better at everything anyway
18:34:59<icedice><fireonlive> i've been trialing that a bit, on iOS notifications are quite delayed sometimes but also it's a bit crashy atm (which... livable)
18:35:00<fireonlive>kinda confused if simplex operates over tor completely or what though
18:35:29<icedice>Glowies track you via push notifications
18:35:45<icedice>So I always disable that on end-to-end encrypted messengers
18:36:49<icedice>https://www.wired.com/story/apple-google-push-notification-surveillance/
18:36:59<icedice><fireonlive> kinda confused if simplex operates over tor completely or what though
18:37:02<icedice>It doesn't
18:37:23<icedice>It has proxy settings that you can use to proxy its traffic via Tor though
18:37:35<icedice>Or other proxy servers of your choice, probably
18:38:30<icedice>So on Android you can either use Termux or Orbot for that
18:39:48<fireonlive>ahh
18:39:57<icedice><joepie91|m> and don't join dodgy groups with it :p
18:40:15<icedice>Where else am I going to find the conspiracy theorists that are too nutty for Facebook though?
18:40:25<fireonlive>luckily i'm just in gay porn groups on my tg alt
18:40:28<fireonlive>:3
18:40:33<nukke>icedice: #archiveteam-ot
18:40:47<nicolas17>I only ever used Telegram for similar purposes as Discord
18:40:54<nicolas17>so idgaf about end to end encryption
18:40:54<icedice>Already ahead of you nukke
18:40:58<icedice>Check the channel lol
18:41:08<nukke>I had to leave that channel. too many crazies
18:41:09<nicolas17>he was answering "Where else am I going to find the conspiracy theorists that are too nutty for Facebook though?"
18:41:28<icedice>Ah, I see
18:41:36<icedice>I thought he said I was off-topic
18:42:05<icedice>Kind of wild the shit that is sold on Telegram
18:42:18<nukke>if gay pr0n talk isn't OT enough, then nothing is
18:42:35<icedice>Telegram is the closest thing you'll get to a darknet market on the clearnet
18:42:37<fireonlive>๐Ÿ˜‡
18:43:44<icedice>I stumbled over a Telegram group that was selling US bank accounts and payment accounts for crypto, for example
18:44:19<fireonlive>i think some sim swapping was happening over TG as well?
18:44:29<icedice>Undoubtedly
18:44:54<icedice>And sales of COVID-19 vaccines while there were still major shortages
18:45:12<icedice>You have to be pretty nuts to trust a random shot over Telegram
18:45:22<fireonlive>oh lord
18:45:26<fireonlive>yeah no thanks lol
18:45:42<fireonlive>new MSCHF drop, already sold out: https://museumofforgeriespicasso.com/
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18:51:39<joepie91|m>icedice: fyi every time I've looked into simplex I've run into dodgy shit
18:51:42<joepie91|m>organizationally speaking
18:51:59<joepie91|m>it smells
18:52:36<joepie91|m>weird contradictory security claims, missing documentation, strange ideas on business models, dubious comparison claims
18:52:42<joepie91|m>it's always something
18:53:36<@JAA>Re Firefox, did they yank the 125.0 release or something? I can't find it anywhere.
18:53:46<@JAA>Only 125.0.1
18:55:55<fireonlive>hm, i only see 125.0b1-9 yeah
18:55:59<fireonlive>but no actual 125.0
18:56:10<@JAA>Yeah, and no release notes for it either.
18:56:30<fireonlive>and 125.0 canidates
18:56:31<@JAA>> Weโ€™re still preparing the notes for this release, and will post them here when they are ready. Please check back later.
18:56:31<fireonlive>https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/candidates/125.0-candidates/
18:56:34<@JAA>https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/125.0/releasenotes/
18:56:37<fireonlive>weird
18:57:09<icedice><joepie91|m> weird contradictory security claims, missing documentation, strange ideas on business models, dubious comparison claims
18:57:11<icedice>Fuck
18:57:15<icedice>Are they glowing?
18:57:53<fireonlive>interesting, 125.0 got indexed?
18:57:57<fireonlive>but is now 404
18:58:01<fireonlive>https://dl.fireon.live/irc/57b25297e769f523/125.0.png
18:58:11<fireonlive>links to https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/releases/125.0/
18:58:26<@JAA>เฒ _เฒ 
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18:58:52<icedice>joepie91|m: What would you recommend? Session?
18:58:54<fireonlive>https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r33868135-Firefox-Firefox-125-0-1Released mentions it being pulled, but not why
18:59:01<icedice>I know Signal is good, but it's not anonymous
19:03:02<fireonlive>https://www.techspot.com/downloads/19-mozilla-firefox.html seems to serve a file called 125.0 at least, but unsure if it's actually that
19:03:06<nicolas17>icedice: push notifications can be end to end encrypted too
19:03:46<joepie91|m>icedice: I don't have a certain read on simplex but I would tend towards "people who just overestimate their cluefulness regarding security"
19:04:05<nicolas17>WhatsApp on iOS used to do an ugly hack where they sent a "silent" push notification with no message content, which woke up the app, the app downloaded the actual message from WhatsApp, decrypted it, and popped a local notification
19:04:10<nukke>what is moxie up to nowadays?
19:04:18<joepie91|m>I would not treat any messenger as anonymous unless routed through something like tor
19:04:42<joepie91|m>(or unless it internally has a similar design that functions in the same manner, that works too)
19:05:01<icedice>Session is routed through Lokinet which is essentially their own darknet
19:05:04<nicolas17>since iOS 10 there is https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/modifying-content-in-newly-delivered-notifications
19:05:25<joepie91|m>ultimately routing information needs to be present to get messages from A to B and that is observable unless you take measures to statistically obscure it like tor does
19:06:23<joepie91|m>as for lokinet, has this seen serious review by qualified folks yet?
19:06:36<joepie91|m>oh lol, blockchains
19:06:42<joepie91|m>that would be an immediate distrust from me
19:06:44<@JAA>fireonlive: I'd go ask them about it, but they shut down their IRC. :-(
19:08:03<joepie91|m>like, I honestly don't even bother reviewing anything blockchain anymore. that entire industry runs on smoke and mirrors
19:08:04<fireonlive>:(
19:12:02<fireonlive>i forgot i have a chat.mozilla.org account, i'll ask in their developers chat
19:12:59<icedice><joepie91|m> as for lokinet, has this seen serious review by qualified folks yet?
19:13:02<icedice>No: https://github.com/oxen-io/lokinet/discussions/1825
19:13:18<icedice>Yeah, I don't like the blockchain bs either
19:13:42<icedice>But there's not that many metadata resistant messengers out there
19:14:08<fireonlive>JAA: "There was a major late breaking issue with 125.0 which made it unshippable. Due to downstream caching/CDNs, we cannot safely overwrite the files. Instead, we pulled 125.0 from that directory, and shipped a 125.0.1 with the fix instead."
19:14:09<joepie91|m>> Lokinet always has supported stakeless relays, there has never been enough interest to bootstrap an opennet despite this. I consider the gripes about the lack of an opennet existing despite it being fully supported to be anecdotal evidence of altruistic models being inferior.
19:14:10<joepie91|m>lmfao
19:14:27<joepie91|m>yeah this goes onto my shitlist instantly
19:14:51<joepie91|m>that one statement is basically an immediate signal to me that these people are not trustworthy
19:15:02<@JAA>fireonlive: Huh, thanks. It'd be good if that were, you know, mentioned somewhere...
19:15:09<fireonlive>indeed
19:15:22<@JAA>The release notes of 125.0 would be a good place.
19:16:49<joepie91|m>the reasoning for that: there are plenty of altruistically-operated networks that work just fine, and it is absurd to cherrypick the lack of a lokinet-flavoured one as "evidence" especially considering that that basically boils down to "we built an entire system according to capitalist principles and left a tiny amount of space for altruistic use, but nobody has wanted to do altruistic things for our capitalistic framework and therefore
19:16:49<joepie91|m>altruism doesn't work"
19:17:04<fireonlive>it won't go back in that directory but; "We keep all potential release builds in https://archive.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/candidates/ for future purposes, and this one will stay there as well :)."
19:17:49<joepie91|m>and if someone considers that any kind of sound reasoning I do not trust them to understand social or economic behaviour well enough to be trusted with other people's safety
19:18:01<fireonlive>i mentioned i went looking for the release notes as well but didn't find it there
19:18:05<icedice>There's Cwtch, but that one isn't audited
19:18:50<joepie91|m>honestly. my recommendation from what I have seen would boil down to "use some standard low-trust messenger over Tor"
19:19:00<nicolas17>they tried to do an altruistic network *in a blockchain community* and it failed?
19:19:05<icedice>And Cwtch only uses Tor
19:19:16<joepie91|m>nicolas17: judging from that comment, yes, that is exactly what they did
19:19:19<@JAA>Ah, didn't realise that re candidates; I guess the last candidate should usually be equal to the release then, which does make sense.
19:19:28<icedice>By the way, every time I checked, Lokinet nodes used the same hosting provider, MVPS
19:19:30<joepie91|m>or rather; what they expected others to do
19:19:37<nicolas17>people willing to run stuff like tor nodes for altruistic purposes wouldn't get close to those kind of people
19:19:47<joepie91|m>exactly
19:20:08<fireonlive>=]
19:20:28<joepie91|m>and like, I would understand if this led them to conclude "altruism isn't happening within lokinet", that would be a reasonable conclusion
19:20:39<joepie91|m>but "evidence that altruistic models are inferior"? come the fuck on, lol
19:21:13<@JAA>Indeed, https://archive.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/releases/125.0.1/SHA256SUMS and https://archive.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/candidates/125.0.1-candidates/build1/SHA256SUMS are identical. :-)
19:23:08<fireonlive>:D sweet
19:23:20<fireonlive>lol this tour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPrPXjn0Ybs
19:32:54<icedice><joepie91|m> > Lokinet always has supported stakeless relays, there has never been enough interest to bootstrap an opennet despite this. I consider the gripes about the lack of an opennet existing despite it being fully supported to be anecdotal evidence of altruistic models being inferior.
19:32:59<icedice>That's a major yikes
19:33:36<fireonlive>o.o
19:35:52<icedice>joepie91|m: What is your impression of Cwtch? https://cwtch.im/
19:36:11<icedice>It's the last metadata resistant messaging app
19:36:36<icedice>(The other two ones being SimpleX Chat and Session)
19:42:14<joepie91|m>icedice: I have not reviewed its implementation but I *have* followed its development from a distance, and have seen no reason to be concerned in terms of trustworthiness of the developers or development process; they generally seem to have a solid grasp of what is needed. whether the implementation is sound is something I cannot meaningfully comment on
19:42:30<joepie91|m>basically, it passes the sniff test
19:42:41<joepie91|m>(unlike most things :p)
19:43:09<joepie91|m>if I had to pick something metadata-resistant today, I would probably tend towards cwtch
19:44:29<joepie91|m>maybe briar?
19:45:03<joepie91|m>(which similarly I have not reviewed the implementation of, but I've seen nothing to inspire concern)
19:51:28<icedice><joepie91|m> maybe briar?
19:52:14<icedice>Briar is the best end-to-end encrypted peer-to-peer messenger, but peer-to-peer messengers are worse when it comes to metadata privacy
19:52:25<icedice>I don't remember the specifics, but that's the gist of it
19:52:35<joepie91|m>that is not necessarily true, it depends on the design
19:52:48<icedice>Then there's the issue that it's Android only
19:52:58<icedice>There's Tox, but that development is a bit of a shitshow
19:53:16<joepie91|m>you may be thinking of the issue of P2P things on the clearnet where senders are directly identifiable by IP to all recipients, because there's no server inbetween?
19:53:28<icedice>And Jami which is P2P unless P2P isn't possible in which case it uses a centralized server, which makes the whole thing pointless
19:53:32<joepie91|m>as that is not applicable for anything onion-routed
19:53:42<icedice><joepie91|m> you may be thinking of the issue of P2P things on the clearnet where senders are directly identifiable by IP to all recipients, because there's no server inbetween?
19:53:52<icedice>I don't remember exactly tbh
19:53:58<icedice>I think it was deeper than that
19:54:19<icedice>I'll try and summon my last two brain cells and see if I can remember something more specific
19:54:43<joepie91|m>if you can find the original argument I would be interested to hear more about it - because it sounds like a dubious claim to me but I also do not want to wholly rule it out without actually understanding the claim properly first :)
19:55:01<joepie91|m>in case it is something I am not aware of
20:03:05<nicolas17>What Is Your Threat Model
20:07:44<icedice>joepie91|m: Found it:
20:07:45<icedice>https://simplex.chat/#comparison-with-p2p-protocols
20:07:53<icedice>https://github.com/simplex-chat/simplex-chat/blob/stable/docs/SIMPLEX.md#comparison-with-p2p-messaging-protocols
20:08:03<icedice>(Same document)
20:08:27<icedice><nicolas17> What Is Your Threat Model
20:08:35<icedice>I want to avoid dragnet surveillance
20:09:10<icedice>I don't expect any targeted surveillance
20:09:19<nicolas17>what sensitive information do you want to protect from that surveillance?
20:09:25<nicolas17>clearly not "everything" or you wouldn't be on IRC
20:10:43<icedice>Some communications and my web surfing
20:11:05<icedice>There's different degrees to that though
20:11:37<icedice>Most of the surfing is just "don't let my ISP stockpile it"
20:11:56<icedice>So Mullvad + LibreWolf / Cromite is fine for most of it
20:12:41<icedice>And it also keeps the MAFIAA away while sailing the high seas
20:15:06<icedice>Being untrackable on the Internet is a pipe dream anyway with Pure Signal Recon / Augury being available to anyone willing to pay for it though
20:20:34<icedice>https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru
20:20:36<icedice>https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3pnkw/us-military-bought-mass-monitoring-augury-team-cymru-browsing-email-data
20:20:43<icedice>https://www.vice.com/en/article/dy3z9a/fbi-bought-netflow-data-team-cymru-contract
20:20:52<icedice>And the NSA have their own thing going, of course
20:22:22<joepie91|m>icedice: those 'arguments' are questionable at best
20:22:28<joepie91|m>(the ones from simplex, against p2p services)
20:22:46<joepie91|m>they make a lot of assumptions and this is very clearly written to make simplex look better, not to provide a genuine insight
20:24:48<icedice>Yeah
20:25:01<icedice>Makes sense
20:26:14<joepie91|m>(one of the unspoken assumptions, for instance, is a 'globally routed' network where everyone is connected to everyone; several of the points do not apply when doing 1:1 messaging with trusted other parties for example)
20:26:36<joepie91|m>likewise various points would not apply to friendnets
20:26:39<joepie91|m>some assume clearnet
20:26:40<joepie91|m>etc
20:26:57<icedice>joepie91|m: There was one other encrypted messaging thing that I wanted to get your take on
20:27:17<joepie91|m>and then there's the vague "no identifiers", which is a dubious claim to begin with (how does it get routed then?) and then makes a handwavy claim about how it is better for privacy in some conveniently unspecified way
20:27:19<joepie91|m>and so on, and so forth
20:27:41<joepie91|m>this is consistent with what I've seen from simplex before; they never quite finish their claims, they always leave parts implicit
20:28:04<joepie91|m>(and that is a hallmark of snakeoil security)
20:28:21<icedice>A XMPP server operator wrote on the now defunct PrivacyTools Forum years ago that you could make the end-to-end encryption worthless by putting the XMPP server in debugging mode and to only use XMPP server you run yourself because of that
20:28:38<icedice>^ My memory of this is pretty foggy, but something along those lines
20:28:54<joepie91|m>genuine technical analysis declares its assumptions explicitly and brings the analysis to a robust conclusion, leaving nothing implied that could be misconstrued
20:28:54<icedice>I could never find the thread again via Wayback Machine
20:29:11<icedice>I did remember who posted it though, so I guess I could try and contact her and ask
20:29:33<joepie91|m>icedice: that sounds dubious to me, especially given that there is no "the end-to-end encryption" (there are several) and at least one of the options is implemented entirely external to the protocol itself (OTR)
20:30:16<joepie91|m>if E2EE could be circumvented by "putting a server in debugging mode" then it was never genuine E2EE to begin with, because that is specifically meant to protect from malicious servers
20:30:19<icedice>Yeah, my thoughts as well
20:30:43<icedice>Maybe she was talking about IP logging and I'm somehow misremembering everything
20:30:52<joepie91|m>so categorically, this claim is false; under some specific circumstances it may be true but then I'd want to see those circumstances defined in a verifiable manner :)
20:30:57<icedice>But then again, I would assume IP logging is possible without any debug mode
20:31:03<joepie91|m>yes
20:31:34<joepie91|m>like, XMPP is an open protocol. "an XMPP server in debugging mode" is functionally indistinguishable from "an entirely custom XMPP server?
20:31:38<joepie91|m>"*
20:32:05<joepie91|m>so the mention of 'debugging mode' specifically, as if it is a hidden secret in one specific piece of software, makes me instantly skeptical
20:32:33<nicolas17>someone doesn't understand what "end to end" means
20:35:24<icedice>Again, this is all from my hazy memory of a forum thread I read years ago and can't find again
20:35:44<icedice>So I would not be surprise if what I've said is not a fair recollection of her arguments
20:35:50<icedice>But it is the best I can do
20:36:03<icedice>Just be aware that I'm an unreliable narrator in this case
20:36:13<joepie91|m>yeah understandable - I'm being rather absolutist here despite that just because I want to make sure that there are no misunderstandings :p
20:36:26<joepie91|m>there is so incredibly much bad information floating around on this subject
20:36:48<joepie91|m>so I don't intend to be judgmental, rather just to be unambiguous
20:36:52<icedice>Yeah, I just wanted to point it out so that she doesn't get roasted because of my shitty memory
20:37:00<joepie91|m>yeah fair :)
20:38:11<icedice>By the way, what's your take on Matrix, Rocket.Chat, Revolt, and Fosscord
20:38:27<icedice>iirc the last two don't have end-to-end encryption last time I checked
20:38:36<icedice>And no mobile apps either
20:39:23<joepie91|m>of these, Matrix is the only one I really have any time for given that it tries to do interoperability rather than being its own little island, but in practice it is held back by governance issues
20:39:34<icedice>Matrix practically syncs all messages back to the Matrix.org home server since there's always at least one Matrix.org user in every chat room unless the home servers are defederated
20:39:50<joepie91|m>(I'm involved in an early-stages project to fork Matrix as a protocol, actually, because of this)
20:40:15<joepie91|m>so yeah my thoughts on Matrix are complicated
20:40:16<icedice>Ok, nice
20:40:30<joepie91|m>I think Matrix has lots of problems but approximately none of them are the things that XMPP people like to complain about
20:40:30<icedice>It's a hard thing to accomplish
20:40:57<joepie91|m>and imo Matrix gets a lot of flak for the wrong reasons, and not enough for the right reasons :)
20:41:30<joepie91|m>but yeah, outside of niche messengers (like for example briar) I generally only really bother evaluating things that have a long-term future
20:41:45<icedice>Yeah, understandable
20:41:47<joepie91|m>things that are unlikely to be gone and replaced 10 years from now
20:42:10<joepie91|m>very, very few messengers meet that bar, most of them are either outright VC-funded or technically aren't but copy their mechanisms and governance
20:42:29<joepie91|m>and that means they are functionally disposable, attempts at gaining marketshare rather than 'solving messaging', ie. not worth my energy :)
20:42:48<icedice>Yeah
20:45:09<joepie91|m>I would say that Matrix had a lot of the right ideas here in terms of sustainability, but it eventually got caught in its own governance trap, it was trying to do things 'institutionally' but without really enough funding to do so
20:45:28<icedice>The Mozilla trap
20:45:41<joepie91|m>hence why I'm working on a protocol fork, taking the useful and good bits of Matrix and hopefully avoiding the bad bits
20:45:44<joepie91|m>yeah
20:45:52<joepie91|m>I mean, Mozilla is a bit weird
20:46:06<joepie91|m>it originated from a company rather than a project, quite unusually
20:46:22<icedice>Maybe try adding in native Tor support into the forked client
20:46:23<joepie91|m>but Mozilla and Matrix do suffer from many similar issues
20:46:42<icedice>From what I've heard using Matrix with Tor is a bit of a shitshow
20:46:51<joepie91|m>well, it's a protocol fork, what the clients do is not the protocol's concern :p as long as it supports it
20:47:12<icedice>Some clients it doesn't work on and the real IP is used instead
20:47:16<icedice>Stuff like that
20:47:36<joepie91|m>right, but that is not controlled by the protocol
20:47:42<icedice>Right
20:48:02<joepie91|m>the main focus is on more decentralized and less institutional governance
20:48:02etnguyen03 (etnguyen03) joins
20:48:18<joepie91|m>and thereby having much better representation of users and contributors and what they actually need
20:48:26<joepie91|m>as that is what matrix governance is breaking on
20:48:35<icedice>Ok
20:53:56<joepie91|m>like, to put it bluntly, if you've ever used Matrix and were annoyed by something with it being a continuous problem or missing feature, the reason can probably be traced back to the governance issues
20:54:44<katia>notification sound
20:54:56<katia>The Improved Sound System Is Coming Soon
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21:03:56<icedice>joepie91|m: https://salty.im/
21:04:07<icedice>^ I figured I'd show you this
21:04:19<icedice>A techie I know on Discord was excited about it
21:04:30<icedice>It's too neckbeardy for my taste right now
21:05:20<icedice>Plus having to register your own domain name for it is a bit of a turn-off
21:29:02<joepie91|m>this looks like just a 1:1 messaging thing?
21:30:03<joepie91|m>like, building a chat protocol is not in and of itself hard, there are a few specific things that are difficult to get right and I'm not seeing any indication of this doing any of them
21:30:31<joepie91|m>hm. I'm not sure this is meant for a general audience to begin with
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21:45:46fireonlive writes matrix in blood on the mirror, then smashes mirror
21:45:47Notrealname1234 (Notrealname1234) joins
21:45:55<fireonlive>๐Ÿ˜ 
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22:00:59<fireonlive>https://twitter.com/ericlaw/status/1780337213173018988
22:01:01<fireonlive>interesting
22:04:03<icedice>joepie91|m: tbh, I fail to see much to get excited about in salty.im
22:04:20<icedice>I figured it was just me who "didn't get it"
22:10:17Connection closed.
22:10:31atirclog (atirclog) joins
22:10:31Topic: Wanna bikeshed about the topic? | We can't be back on our bullshit if we were never off our bullshit FOREHEADTAP.GIF
22:10:31Topic set by Fusl at 2019-09-06 21:43:25Z
22:10:33Current users: atirclog (atirclog), T31M, linuxgemini (linuxgemini), nulldata4 (nulldata), igloo22225 (igloo22225), jspiros (jspiros), decky_e, BlueMaxima, Notrealname1234 (Notrealname1234), benjins, midou, ThetaDev, DogsRNice, Jens (JensRex), VerifiedJ9 (VerifiedJ), pixel (pixel), Lord_Nightmare (Lord_Nightmare), sec^nd (second), HackMii (hacktheplanet), rewby|m, flashfire42|m (flashfire42), @Sanqui|m (Sanqui), xxia|m, mind_combatant, theblazehen|m, nstrom|m, joepie91|m, haha-whered-it-go|m, yzqzss (yzqzss), schwarzkatz|m, DigitalDragon (DigitalDragon), tech234a|m, britmob|m, audrooku|m, igneousx (igneousx), masterx244|m, mpeter|m, Ajay, NickS|m, Thibaultmol, Minkafighter|m, GRBaset (GRBaset), tomodachi94 (tomodachi94), akaibu|m, Fletcher (Fletcher), Video, CrispyAlice2 (CrispyAlice2), mikolaj|m, Hans5958 (Hans5958), gwetchen|m, x9fff00 (x9fff00), moe-a-m|m, wrangle|m, vexr, superusercode (superusercode), jwoglom|m, thermospheric (Thermospheric), Explo, Cydog|m, Roki_100|m, trumad|m, gungagungagunga|m, phaeton (phaeton), nosamu|m, Adamvoltagex|m, iCesenberk|m, s-crypt|m|m, qyxojzh|m, bogsen (bogsen), supermariofan67|m, vics, djasldjasldjalsdj|m, M--mlv|m, archivist|m, Vokun, TastyWiener95 (TastyWiener95), Bleo182600, datechnoman (datechnoman), Craigle (Craigle), balrog (balrog), nic8 (nic), flotwig (flotwig), parfait_, @rewby (rewby), Mateon1, qwertyasdfuiopghjkl (qwertyasdfuiopghjkl), Larsenv (Larsenv), Ruthalas59 (Ruthalas), fangfufu (fangfufu), SootBector (SootBector), Meli (Meli), anarcat (anarcat), Doranwen (Doranwen), pseudorizer (pseudorizer), JTL (JTL), Barto (Barto), tzt (tzt), IDK (IDK), icedice (icedice), pabs (pabs), tbc1887 (tbc1887), eroc1990 (eroc1990), qw3rty, atphoenix (atphoenix), andrew (andrew), tapos, zhongfu (zhongfu), ^ (^), BearFortress, fuzzy8021 (fuzzy8021), lunik1, driib (driib), TheTechRobo (TheTechRobo), ScenarioPlanet (ScenarioPlanet), Pedrosso, hexa- (hexa-), @ChanServ, h3ndr1k (h3ndr1k), Jon, masterX244 (masterX244), FireFly, @HCross (HCross), Ctrl-S, thejsa, cptcobalt, todb, monohedron (monohedron), qxtal (qxtal), justcool393 (justcool393), mgrandi (mgrandi), dan-, @rewby|backup (rewby), @hook54321 (hook54321), seadog007_, pnJay, [42] (N4Y), Meroje (Meroje), cultpony (cultpony), tech234a (tech234a), DrasticActions, lea (lea_), kpcyrd (kpcyrd), nickofnicks (nickofnicks), thuban (thuban), @Fusl (Fusl), @chfoo (chfoo), immibis (immibis), Irenes (ireneista), fluke, girst (girst), maxfan8 (maxfan8), cm, simon816 (simon816), angenieux (angenieux), @arkiver (arkiver), nukke (nukke), NotGLaDOS, BPCZ (BPCZ), katia (katia), DigitalDragons (DigitalDragons), monoxane (monoxane), magmaus3 (magmaus3), programmerq (programmerq), mgrytbak, za3k, nothere, DLoader (DLoader), G4te_Keep3r34924, Muad-Dib, neggles (neggles), dave (dave), project10_ (project10), systwi (systwi), Gereon (Gereon), luckcolors (luckcolors), Church (Church), lumidify (lumidify), Matthww, ThreeHM (ThreeHeadedMonkey), superkuh, s-crypt (s-crypt), flashfire42 (flashfire42), hogchips (shoghicp), Terbium, kiska5, Ryz (Ryz), MetaNova (MetaNova), c3manu (c3manu), PredatorIWD, katocala (katocala), Shjosan (Shjosan), @kaz (Kaz), Chris5010 (Chris5010), fireonlive (fireonlive), Hackerpcs (Hackerpcs), benjins2, Letur, Dango360 (Dango360), yano (yano), nicolas17, that_lurker (that_lurker), nulldata (nulldata), jodizzle (jodizzle), useretail__, nyakase (vukky), xarph, rappet (rappet), ymgve, kiska (kiska), Ryz2 (Ryz), wickedplayer494 (wickedplayer494), raxxy-137409, SF, evanim (evanim), imer (imer), @dxrt (dxrt), Exorcism (exorcism), Kinille (Kinille), steering (steering), CraftByte (DragonSec|CraftByte), rohvani, systwi_, d10n, le0n (le0n), lizardexile, myself (myself), monika (boom), ArchivalEfforts, AK (AK), yawkat (yawkat), @Sanqui (Sanqui), Jake (Jake), Suika, danwellby, eggdrop (eggdrop), @OrIdow6 (OrIdow6), nyany (nyany), Soulflare, @JAA (JAA), fionera (Fionera), Dj-Wawa (Dj-Wawa), sknebel (sknebel), Kenshin (Kenshin), SketchCow, pie_, Sluggs_, Aoede (Aoede), kiskaLogBot, mrfooooo, franga2000, Miori, Billy549 (Billy549), lindowsME, Medowar, yasomi (yasomi)
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22:12:33<icedice>Notrealname1234: Probably a netsplit
22:12:48<Notrealname1234>okay
22:13:09<icedice>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netsplit
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22:18:48<nulldata>https://youtu.be/t3otBjVZzT0
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22:19:35<joepie91|m>icedice: yeah no, I agree - I don't see anything obviously bad about it, just also nothing especially interesting
22:20:01<joepie91|m>I think this is just meant as a personal project, in which case it's... fine, honestly?
22:20:06<icedice>Yeah
22:20:54<icedice>Just odd how excited the guy seemed about it, acting like it would be the golden standard for private communications alongside SimpleX Chat
22:21:21DLoader (DLoader) joins
22:24:30<nulldata>https://archive.is/VRODM
22:24:55<Notrealname1234>do you all know a irc client that is on android works on hackint?
22:25:51<nyany>Notrealname1234: Revolution
22:26:07<nyany>You can also use IRCCloud and have it be cross platform
22:26:50<Notrealname1234>thanks
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22:28:22<nulldata>I wish The Lounge would let me selectively ignore joins and leaves for a specific nick lol
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22:35:50Notrealname1234 (Notrealname1234) joins
22:36:20<Notrealname1234>thanks
22:38:34<Notrealname1234>thanks for finding the irc client
22:40:42<Notrealname1234>better setup the one for wikipedia
22:40:57<Notrealname1234>i edit there if you want to know
22:45:09Fusl (Fusl) joins
22:45:09@ChanServ sets mode: +o Fusl
22:48:07<Notrealname1234>also, because of this, i might be active 24/7 now
22:58:39<Notrealname1234>IRCCloud is paid
22:59:50<nulldata>Notrealname1234 - it might be better to setup something like The Lounge. Otherwise you're going to be spamming everyone more than you do now with join/leave lol. The Android client is going to do reconnects everytime you have spotty reception
23:00:27<Notrealname1234>dang it, what do i do
23:01:45<Notrealname1234>nulldata
23:08:05etnguyen03 (etnguyen03) joins
23:14:07<Notrealname1234>im not gonna setup the lounge because that requires a server
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23:23:43<icedice><Notrealname1234> IRCCloud is paid
23:23:46<icedice>Nah, freemium
23:24:04<icedice>You get two IRC networks + IRCCloud's own IRC network for free
23:24:25<icedice>So it's enough for hackint and Wikipedia
23:24:28<nukke>irccloud has a network?!
23:24:32<@JAA>> Stay connected for 2 hours while inactive
23:24:33<@JAA>lol
23:24:51<nukke>also irccloud's client has emoji reactions
23:24:53<icedice>"2 IRC connections
23:24:53<icedice> (other than irc.irccloud.com)"
23:24:57<icedice>Seems like it
23:25:06<icedice>But yeah, not a great free plan
23:25:23<icedice>The Lounge or Convos would be better
23:25:52<fireonlive>time to setup a server :p
23:25:57tzt (tzt) joins
23:26:30<Notrealname1234>nuh uh
23:26:36<Notrealname1234>i wont setup a server
23:26:42<@JAA>https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/User:JustAnotherArchivist/The_Lounge
23:27:26<Notrealname1234>i need something thats a android app
23:27:58<fireonlive>JAA: https://dl.fireon.live/irc/418681892c08dbc9/The_Lounge.png
23:28:01<fireonlive>x3
23:28:17<@JAA>You're not going to get a stable IRC connection from a mobile device without some kind of intermediate host (bouncer or hosted IRC client).
23:30:46<Notrealname1234>The Lounge requires self hosting which i can't do
23:31:06<@JAA>fireonlive: https://transfer.archivete.am/inline/s3CyP/fireonlive.png
23:31:08<@JAA>:-)
23:32:16<fireonlive>xD
23:32:39<Notrealname1234>JAA says: "buh-bye"
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23:33:35<Notrealname1234>still, i need something thats an Android app
23:34:12<fireonlive>irccloud is probably the closest you'll get
23:34:18<@JAA>Notrealname1234: I believe there are some places where you can get a free bouncer, but I have no experience with them. But yes, you'll need some sort of server or a hosted service like IRCCloud. IRC is 35 years old and doesn't work well with mobile devices on unstable connections.
23:34:25<fireonlive>you'll just disconnect less often
23:34:47<@JAA>Maaaybe IRCv3 will eventually solve the problem, but who knows.
23:35:51<fireonlive>ergo has a built in bouncer always online nick thingy but... it's still early days (only one server, no 'network')
23:36:16<Notrealname1234>still will be on this app
23:42:54<icedice>Use a free bouncer
23:43:09<icedice>Just don't get shocked if they don't care about your privacy
23:43:25<icedice>I'd assume they log what they can
23:47:48<Notrealname1234>nuh uh
23:48:07<Notrealname1234>yeah im leaving
23:48:10Notrealname1234 quits [Client Quit]
23:49:08<icedice>Can't help lazy
23:49:39<nyany>heh
23:53:51<icedice>tbh, we should probably just have told him to use the Matrix bridge
23:54:48<nyany>but that requires an ~account~
23:58:27<myself>meh, I just threw TheLounge on a raspi on a shelf next to my wifi router, ain't hard. I'm a software idiot and it took me less than an hour.

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