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00:02:26<nulldata>https://twitter.com/maxwelltani/status/1762880618239586420
00:02:26<eggdrop>nitter: https://farside.link/nitter/maxwelltani/status/1762880618239586420
00:03:04<nulldata>If anyone finds the leaked audio, please let me know lol
00:07:31<nicolas17>seems these errors are greatly slowing me down too, I'm running 30 threads and all but ~5 are stuck, they'll get 504 Gateway Timeout in a few minutes
00:14:00<imer>nicolas17: guessing the normal load time is low and somewhat predicable, could set a timeout for the requests and just asssume 504 if they dont finish in that time?
00:14:19<nicolas17>I think these long delays and 504s are recent
00:14:34<nicolas17>so I'll wait to see if it fixes itself in the next hours/days
00:14:40<imer>or that :)
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00:52:51<fireonlive>djhvlpadplvjpoveiopghqep98ghrp9ugvprejpvfpvhdfopvbhopudefhbvoupefhiuvberhiuvheru9pvhruhvp9rhp9vriogjrophvpodfvphfipovcipovhiphefpvbh9rhv9r3qh890gv3rho0gvh3r9ghv9uqrwhgu9ewqh89evdwupvnjlpvniprehgvipuqr3hfgiureqhfgr8e9hguipwrtbjioptrngiourh9gu0hrqueghvrfhpjvofreipoubhreui90ghrhgvipureqhgfiupqrnigfqhreiupghqiuperhvipuq3rhbg89vhq3r9gfh3rhfgu93rhfivbreq
00:52:51<fireonlive>ivhreihvgiueqrhvi9uqrhgq
00:53:35<nukke>I agree
00:53:49<nukke>Nicely said
00:54:20<fireonlive>tks
00:54:25<@JAA>Oh yeah, good point!
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03:24:06<fireonlive>https://dl.fireon.live/irc/f27ae916dbe49b54/image.png
03:24:08<fireonlive>lmao
03:26:11<@JAA>Nice
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05:26:10<fireonlive>https://facebook.com/security/hsts-pixel.gif?c=3.2
05:26:11<fireonlive>hm
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06:35:05<@JAA>Uh, Canada, u ok? Just read about C-63...
06:37:11<fireonlive>no :(
06:40:50<fireonlive>(https://archive.is/6oPi7 https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/new-online-harms-bill-would-force-major-online-services-to-quickly-take-down-harmful-sexual-content-1.6783426?clipId=373266)
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10:17:34<that_lurker>fireonlive: Ahh yes the infamous facebook data collecting pixel
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14:27:30<nulldata>https://docs.hetzner.com/general/others/new-billing-model/
14:28:48<katia>i'm scared to click
14:29:17<imer>tldr changing their backend to hourly billing as the cloud stuff does, no price changes
14:29:23<imer>seems fine to me
14:29:29<katia>phew
14:29:42<katia>long live hetzner
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15:15:21<nicolas17>nulldata: that sounds like money saving for everyone
15:16:34<nicolas17>plus if they start charging at the end of the service month instead of the beginning, during the transition it's like you get a free month
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17:01:50<nulldata>https://twitter.com/__silent_/status/1763197736231247983
17:01:50<eggdrop>nitter: https://farside.link/nitter/__silent_/status/1763197736231247983
17:14:03<nukke>https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/02/29/leap-year-glitch-takes-down-pay-at-the-pumps-around-country/
17:16:29<nukke>Who knew leap years were the real y2k
17:18:11<fireonlive>nice
17:21:16<nicolas17>https://codeofmatt.com/list-of-2024-leap-day-bugs/
17:25:47<ymgve_>unix time for everything
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18:20:09<fireonlive>https://www.45drives.com/solutions/proxmox/break-free-from-vendor-lock-in-with-45Drives/
18:20:15<fireonlive>just got this lol
18:20:34<fireonlive>lots of people hopping in on vz now
18:21:42<nicolas17>vz?
18:22:10<nicolas17>"Migrate from VMware to Proxmox" oh :D
18:26:39<fireonlive>yee
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19:37:36<fireonlive>JAA: found the perfect thing for you
19:37:52<fireonlive>"Hyper is an Electron-based terminal; Built on HTML/CSS/JS; Fully extensible"
19:37:53<fireonlive>https://hyper.is/
20:18:45@JAA yeets fireonlive into a fire.
20:19:32<fireonlive>xP
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20:36:26<TheTechRobo>I will never understand why building something on Electron is touted as a benefit. Why would that make someone more inclined to like it?
20:39:10<@JAA>It's easier for someone with an HTML/JS/CSS brain, I guess.
20:39:22<@JAA>As in, the dev, not the user.
20:39:38<@JAA>And yeah, agreed.
20:40:09<TheTechRobo>New question: Why would someone _prefer_ working with HTML/JS/CSS over other things? :P
20:40:56<@JAA>Beats me.
20:41:02<joepie91|m>because it is generally much more coherent, much better documented, and with much better tooling than conventional UI toolkits
20:41:09<joepie91|m>(and works cross-platform)
20:41:39<@JAA>JS coherent? That's new to me.
20:41:43<TheTechRobo>I suppose I can understand that. UI toolkits tend to have a decent learning curve
20:41:48<joepie91|m>yes
20:42:00<joepie91|m>but also JS isn't really the part that makes that work, HTML/CSS is
20:42:19<joepie91|m>UI is really hard and basically nothing has had as much work put into its ergonomics as HTML/CSS
20:42:28<joepie91|m>CSS sucks but everything that is not CSS sucks more, essentially
20:42:38<@JAA>JS is one of the quirkiest common languages I've yet encountered.
20:42:53<@JAA>But yeah, agreed on the other point.
20:43:53<@JAA>Sucks that nobody seems to give a shit how well it performs on the user's device, how many resources it hogs, or how much energy it wastes.
20:43:55<TheTechRobo>Yeah, about the only thing I've ever made a decent UI with is Godot, because it's WYSIWYG.
20:44:24<TheTechRobo>JAA: I wonder if someone could figure out compiling HTML/CSS into a code for a native UI toolkit?
20:44:35<joepie91|m>JAA: Electron being a resource hog is a misconception IMO, and a result of people misattributing socioeconomic factors to a tech thing
20:44:53<TheTechRobo>joepie91|m: It's Chromium. It's a resource hog.
20:45:00<joepie91|m>it is correct that most Electron apps are resource-inefficient but the reason for that is not Electron
20:45:05<joepie91|m>and also not Chromium
20:45:07<TheTechRobo>Unless they've moved away from Chromium...?
20:46:19<joepie91|m>it's something almost entirely nontechnical; people (esp. managers) going "it's like a web browser, right?" and trying to cut dev costs by assigning the dev to webdevs instead of desktop devs, ie. people used to an environment with very different performance factors (time to first byte is important but long-term memory use is not because tabs get closed, for instance)
20:46:44<joepie91|m>having desktop apps developed by people without experience in developing desktop apps is going to end poorly regardless of tech stack
20:46:56<joepie91|m>it's a different specialization
20:47:17<@JAA>True, but the tech stack involved here is much more massive than necessary for most applications because, well, it was designed for web use, not desktop apps.
20:47:24<joepie91|m>it's the same reason that so many Electron apps run a built-in webserver even though there is no technical need for that
20:47:35<joepie91|m>JAA: it really isn't
20:47:51<joepie91|m>I think you underestimate the relative complexity of UI toolkits
20:48:07<TheTechRobo>> The framework is designed to create desktop applications using web technologies (mainly HTML, CSS and JavaScript, although other technologies such as front-end frameworks and WebAssembly are possible) that are rendered using a version of the Chromium browser engine and a back end using the Node.js runtime environment
20:48:08<TheTechRobo>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_(software_framework)
20:48:15<joepie91|m>internally there actually isn't very much difference between CEF and a UI toolkit like Qt or GTK
20:49:15<joepie91|m>("a version of the Chromium browser engine" is CEF, btw)
20:49:49<TheTechRobo>Right, CEF. Is there really that much difference to Chromium? I figured it would use the same engines, etc., just being a library.
20:49:56<joepie91|m>but yeah, by far the bulk of CEF's complexity is going to be in the rendering subsystem, which is the same subsystem that UI toolkits need to have for an equivalent flexibility
20:49:58<TheTechRobo>Which means it would still have the inefficiencies that Chrom* does.
20:50:14<joepie91|m>what 'inefficiencies' would those be?
20:51:49<TheTechRobo>I was under the impression that the entire reason that Chrome/chromium are such resource hogs is *because* of the inefficiencies.
20:51:50<TheTechRobo>I suppose for me to have a valid opinion, I would have to ask: what does CEF actually change? Is it just Chromium but with no UI?
20:52:30<joepie91|m>but again, what "the inefficiencies"? because that's a pretty load-bearing thing to say, but if it truly is so clearly a resource hog, then surely it must be identifiable where those inefficiencies are and why?
20:52:56<joepie91|m>AIUI, CEF is a stripped-down chromium (so yes, browser-specific things removed), with an API more suitable for embedding
20:53:05<joepie91|m>but I am not super familiar with the differences
20:53:21<@JAA>Do you have an example of a well-performing Electron app?
20:53:28<TheTechRobo><joepie91|m> but again, what "the inefficiencies"? because that's a pretty load-bearing thing to say, but if it truly is so clearly a resource hog, then surely it must be identifiable where those inefficiencies are and why?
20:53:28<TheTechRobo>When I run Chromium on my system I notice it uses a lot more RAM than the Firefox equivalent
20:53:42<TheTechRobo>And even simple electron apps that barely do anything use more than their fair share of memory
20:54:03<fireonlive>i wish firefox had PWA support :/
20:54:10<fireonlive>they seem to have decided they don't wish to do so
20:54:21<joepie91|m>it's correct that chromium can use more RAM for the same tabs, but crucially this only happens on systems that have the RAM available; it uses less on lower-specced systems
20:54:38<fireonlive>(talking to you from the lounge-PWA on desktop)
20:54:42<joepie91|m>that's because much of its RAM use comes from "holding onto allocations just in case, and only releasing if necessary" to avoid fragmentation and improve performance
20:54:50<TheTechRobo>fireonlive: I've never particularly understood PWAs. Isn't it basically the website but not shown as a tab?
20:54:56<joepie91|m>(which you can disable with a flag, also in Electron, at a performance cost)
20:55:12<joepie91|m>the same is true for eg. JS heap allocations
20:55:31<joepie91|m>so code that is very bursty in memory use can appear to use much more RAM than it actually is actively using at most times
20:55:54<joepie91|m>most applications do not actively avoid bursty RAM use and so they appear to use lots of RAM
20:56:07<joepie91|m>(or sometimes they just actually use a lot of RAM because of bad code, of course)
20:56:59<joepie91|m>JAA: a somewhat well-known example would be vscode which uses *significantly* less resources and is much more responsive than eg. Atom which is built on the same stack
20:57:19<joepie91|m>but you can also just run electron on a blank page, and it'll use like... 60MB of RAM?
20:57:45<joepie91|m>so "Electron itself" clearly does not explain the memory use or that wouldn't be the idle use
20:58:11<@JAA>Hmm, interesting, might play with it sometime. Though I'd use VSCodium, not VSCode.
20:58:24<joepie91|m>equivalent for the purpose of this comparison :p
20:58:25<@JAA>At the very least, it encourages bad habits, I guess.
21:01:15<TheTechRobo>JAA: Out of curiosity, what editor do you currently use?
21:03:38<@JAA>TheTechRobo: Mostly nano. With tmux panes or multiple terminals as needed. Occasionally PyCharm for larger Python projects I'm not familiar with yet.
21:03:44<joepie91|m>as an aside, I think that "browsers use so much RAM" comments in general are a bit misleading - people treat browsers as if they are single applications and their resource usage is therefore unreasonable, but in reality they're more like application platforms and that memory use is the aggregrate of all that you have open. RAM has grown relatively consistently despite a transition to browser-first applications in society, and nobody
21:03:44<joepie91|m>would expect to have 100 applications open at once back in the XP/2GB days, but people do routinely expect their browser to have 100 tabs (~= applications) open. in summary, I think the memory use is generally actually completely reasonable for what people are doing with it, and "browser memory use" is IMO mostly a nerd problem for nerds with an in some ways outdated model of how OSes and processes work
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21:39:35<kpcyrd>the signal update for phone number privacy has dropped today
21:40:50<kpcyrd>you can now also use an url to link to yourself, has somebody already figured out how this works?
21:41:28<kpcyrd>the link does not contain the username but instead some kind of key
22:04:28<nukke>watch the key just be an MD5 hash of your real phone number
22:07:56<kpcyrd>apparently there are https://signal.me/#p/+18885551234, https://signal.me/#u/signal.03 and https://signal.me/#eu/<base64>
22:13:10<kpcyrd>https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Desktop/blob/1b046390095a28796dd6930ec29c6f3a5455f260/ts/util/signalRoutes.ts#L253
22:15:05<kpcyrd>https://github.com/signalapp/libsignal/blob/f980fccd8ae72fe21dc202d644b358667d60e2b0/rust/usernames/src/username_links.rs#L57-L83
22:27:40<fireonlive>TheTechRobo: yeah but also shows up as it's own 'app' so can cmd/alt tab to it
22:28:24<fireonlive>ooh i woulda guessed JAA to be a vimmer
22:43:00<TheTechRobo>fireonlive: Yeah, but you can just open it in a new tab. :P
22:43:19<TheTechRobo>Or wait, doesn't macOS only support alt-tabbing to a specific app, not window?
22:51:18<fireonlive>yeah just app
22:51:33<fireonlive>once you’re in an app you can cmd ` to switch windows
22:51:36<fireonlive>but it’s a pain lol
22:51:38<@JAA>wtf
22:51:48<TheTechRobo>I like how apple likes to trade functionality for... well, what exactly is gained here?
22:52:13<TheTechRobo>I guess you can go to Mission Control or whatever that's called, though, right?
22:52:14<fireonlive>it’s fine for most things I guess
22:52:27<TheTechRobo>fireonlive: I would die if I only had app switching lmao
22:52:32<fireonlive>although with a PWA I got to see notification icons etc
22:52:38<@JAA>90% of my open windows are terminals. This would be completely useless to me.
22:52:40<TheTechRobo>I put everything for a specific project in a specific window
22:52:48<TheTechRobo>For browsers, that is
22:53:04<fireonlive>I think there’s a third-party to get the other os alt tab behaviour
22:53:10<fireonlive>but can’t remember
22:53:10<TheTechRobo>>be apple
22:53:18<TheTechRobo>>require third party enhancement for basic functionality
22:53:22<fireonlive>lols
22:53:29<TheTechRobo>>disallow third party enhancement on most devices
22:53:33<fireonlive>they just think different ™ when it comes to window management
22:53:35<fireonlive>xD
22:53:47<@JAA>s/ when.*$//
22:54:32<fireonlive>JAA: yeah…. youd be command tab away from firefox and then a lot of command ` to find your terminal window lol
22:54:45<fireonlive>although I usually only use one with a lot of tabs
22:55:13<TheTechRobo>fireonlive: Ew. Do you at least use some form of tab grouping?
22:55:18<@JAA>Is it at least ordered by most recently used?
22:55:27<fireonlive>I have way too many tabs on everything… swapping to hell and back
22:55:41<@JAA>Or something insane like ordering by window title?
22:55:41<TheTechRobo>Same with me, but it's (mildly) organises
22:55:52<TheTechRobo>s/organises/organized/
22:56:12<fireonlive>Not a lot of grouping support
22:56:21<@JAA>I have one terminal window by 'topic' and then as many tabs as needed.
22:56:22<fireonlive>Safari has different profiles now though
22:56:27<@JAA>s/by/per/
22:56:34<fireonlive>most recently used yeah
22:56:59<TheTechRobo>JAA: I need to get into that habit. Right now, whenever I need a terminal, I just Ctrl-Alt-T. Even when I already have the same thing open in another terminal window. lol
22:57:09<fireonlive>ah makes sense
22:57:23<TheTechRobo>fireonlive: I just open up TL when I want to check it
22:57:27<@JAA>TheTechRobo: Just try not to accumulate dozens of windows in the process like me. :-P
22:57:30<fireonlive>sometimes I don’t wanna go through all my tabs so I just have like three connections to the same tmux session
22:57:33<fireonlive>xP
22:57:45<TheTechRobo>Only downside is for some reason Firefox doesn't like to receive push notifications if the tab isn't open.
22:57:52<TheTechRobo>fireonlive: That is far too relatable
22:57:57<fireonlive>Then I’ll eventually ring the bell and find out that I have more than one
22:58:05<TheTechRobo>I have had three connections to the same tmux session at once
22:58:09<fireonlive>I never don’t want to check the lounge :3
22:58:25<fireonlive>So having it have a little red icon in the dock is handy
22:59:38<TheTechRobo>Worst part is it's over SSH. So back when my internet was shit my three connections to the server ate into that.
22:59:49<fireonlive>oof
22:59:51<@JAA>lol
22:59:58<fireonlive>needs more mosh
23:00:03<TheTechRobo>(My internet is no longer shit, but the wifi setup im now using is.)
23:00:04<fireonlive>something I also want to set up but haven’t yet
23:00:18<fireonlive>You gotta run a big ethernet cable across the floor techrobo
23:00:30<TheTechRobo>Not very doable considering it's across floors. :P
23:00:33<fireonlive>I’m sadly considering doing that for my Apple TV :|
23:00:43<fireonlive>up the stairs works too
23:00:46<fireonlive>just need long
23:00:54<TheTechRobo>I do think DSL is nice for the specific reason that you just need a phone jack. So it can be practically anywhere
23:00:55<@JAA>Not with that attitude.
23:01:19<fireonlive>there are like moca etc adapters
23:01:33<fireonlive>to adapt phone lines or coax into ethernet
23:01:42<TheTechRobo>My router here has to be on one side of the house, and it isn't practical to wire the fibre thingy over a long distance to something else
23:01:44<fireonlive>if your phone lines aren’t cat 5/5e
23:01:54<TheTechRobo>fireonlive: It works over DSL? TIL
23:02:18<TheTechRobo>Thought it was just coax, which is placed at inconvenient points in the house.
23:02:24<@JAA>Yep, I used to have a DSL modem in my room back in the day.
23:02:41<TheTechRobo>I do actually like Bell's wifi pods, as they worked really well, but they force you to rent them.
23:03:41<nulldata>https://www.axios.com/2024/02/29/jack-teixiera-pentagon-leak-guilty-plea
23:04:17<fireonlive>https://www.techreviewer.com/learn-about-tech/ethernet-over-coax-a-complete-guide-to-moca-adapters/
23:04:31<fireonlive>there’s one for dsl too i think
23:05:14<fireonlive>of course is also powerline ethernet but that’s usually not great lol
23:05:57<TheTechRobo>Yeah, I think power line Ethernet would be worse than my current wifi solution.
23:06:28<TheTechRobo>Which is "accept that all pcie wifi cards are bad, and stick a router set to repeat the wifi signal over Ethernet beside the computer and connect to it via Ethernet".
23:06:45<@JAA>Put up a few mirrors and establish a laser link!
23:06:57<TheTechRobo>For some reason it doesn't actually repeat the wifi signal while it's in wifi repeater mode but it repeats it over Ethernet just fine, lol
23:06:58<fireonlive>hmmm. I can’t remember the name of it but it could’ve sworn there was a phone line equivalent for MoCA
23:07:12<fireonlive>like off the shelf consumer adaptors
23:07:29<@JAA>Yeah, it'd be hilariously silly, but... lasers!
23:07:31<TheTechRobo>Then after a day or two it slows to a crawl (multi-second latency) and I have to fix it by restarting the repeater.
23:07:43<fireonlive>oof
23:07:50<fireonlive>is it up2date?
23:08:01<TheTechRobo>Which takes about a minute or two.
23:08:14<TheTechRobo>fireonlive: Not sure, but i think so
23:08:24<TheTechRobo>i looked into openwrt but it doesn't seem to support it
23:10:44<TheTechRobo>Better than my pcie wifi card though. That piece of shit can barely hold a connection
23:22:12<@JAA>fireonlive will like this quote by Elton John:
23:22:15<@JAA>> Out shopping one day I realized I might have exhausted the possibilities of retail therapy when I found myself buying a cuckoo clock that, instead of a cuckoo, had a large wooden penis that popped in and out of it every hour
23:22:35<fireonlive>ooooh :3
23:41:48<fireonlive>https://dl.fireon.live/irc/6776e199737e02e4/whythispersonhatesrust.png
23:41:49<fireonlive>lol
23:47:00<imer>I'd bet half if not more of the "rust community" telling people to switch to rust aren't actually rust devs
23:48:43<fireonlive>hmmm yeah i could see that
23:48:48<fireonlive>just saying it for the memes
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