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01:20:07<fireonlive>https://transfer.archivete.am/inline/SciqL/1689643182.png
01:20:12<fireonlive>i mean, yes i am, but uh
01:20:15<fireonlive>not exactly at that
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01:29:21<DigitalDragons>like the element app when you shake your phone
01:29:30<DigitalDragons>"you seem frustrated. would you like to submit a bug report.
01:29:34<DigitalDragons>?"
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02:11:32<fireonlive>ah yes :D
02:11:38<fireonlive>called 'rageshake' in the settings i think
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03:16:16<@hook54321>looking around at credit cards, and it's crazy to me how some people have like 13 cards, that seems more trouble to manage than it's worth.
03:17:24<fireonlive>i just be sure to keep the 4 i have constantly maxed out :c
03:21:02<fireonlive>ok not that bad but ooof i'm super bad at money lol
03:23:31<@hook54321>i was raised to basically think "credit cards bad", so i've never been in debt. and they can be bad for some people, but unfortunately a credit score is kinda necessary, at least in the US,
03:25:11<Doranwen>I was raised to never buy anything on credit card that I couldn't pay off that month - and to always pay it off.
03:25:38<Doranwen>As a result, I've actually made money on the credit card companies, lol - they give these rewards for this and that, and it's like "yay, free money" because I've never paid them a cent of interest on any bill.
03:32:03<@hook54321>my parents hate putting anything on a credit card period. they strictly go with dave ramsey's advice on it.
03:41:12<fireonlive>i've been told the same as Doranwen but the impulse purchases to "make me happy" (very temporarily) win out..
03:42:03<fireonlive>starbucks in the morning? sure
03:42:09<fireonlive>adds up though...
03:50:55<Doranwen>hook54321: We only use ours to extend the point at which we have to actually pay for it - let the credit card companies pay first and we hold onto our money for longer - but we make sure to always pay it off that month. They will not make money on me.
03:51:29<Doranwen>Of course, they want to offer me more credit and all that stuff because my record looks good.
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03:52:38<Doranwen>fireonlive: Lol, I'll bet it does. Makes me glad I don't do coffee.
03:52:54<Doranwen>No temptation to give Starbucks any of my money.
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04:08:43<za3k>Thanks for the answers about file format
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04:09:09<za3k>There's something weird going on with my bouncer but I read the logs on kiska
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04:14:13<fireonlive>:)
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04:14:28<fireonlive>Doranwen: yeeeeeah... and I doordash it a lot too which adds fees Q_Q
04:14:41<fireonlive>i'm late to work, they can bring it to me! :D
04:14:48<za3k>thuban and pabs thanks! and thanks to JAA for passing along the message a second time
04:15:09<fireonlive>za3k: hope you're able to make it work!
04:16:41<pabs>yeah, good luck :)
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04:25:26<za3k>Well, I tried mwaw2html, and it doesn't look like the output is reasonable to me, unfortauntely.
04:25:33<za3k>Did you spot that I posted the actual file?
04:26:28<za3k>anyway, i'm guessing it might not actually be 'mwaw' format
04:27:11<za3k>either that or libmwaw is /very/ not up to task?
04:27:45<za3k>https://germinate.za3k.com/pub/tmp/mwaw-converted.html
04:29:46<za3k>But I appreciate the try
04:29:52<za3k>Much farther than I got
04:34:55<pabs>the old libreoffice option is probably the next best option
04:36:16<za3k>i was thinking of just trying a mac emulator, but i'm not convinced this is actually written in MORE
04:37:33<thuban>i believe the libreoffice filter just used libmwaw, so you may not have any more success with it
04:37:41<za3k>Yeah that was also my theory
04:37:52<za3k>The dependency certainly suggests it
04:38:14<za3k>But maybe it used it a smarter way than mwaw2html uses it?
04:38:59<pabs>worth a try at least
04:39:13<thuban>as for your other suggestion, i think it more likely that it is MORE and libmwaw just doesn't handle it that well (mathtype, etc) than that it's something else
04:39:33<za3k>Maybe I should see if an emulator works, then.
04:43:48<za3k>I tried the writerperfect programs as well. I can give Libreoffice 5 a try, but that will probably need a different OS
04:45:56<thuban>emulation seems worth a try. (it's freeware now: http://outliners.scripting.com/more31.html. i'm not 100% sure whether more 3 can read more 2 files, but it seems likely)
04:48:15<thuban>alternatively, if you have access to a latter-day mac, you might try grabbing a copy of omnioutliner (this being by far the most recent software to have supported this format)
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04:50:00<thuban>beyond that, there are a few things you could attempt, but it kind of depends on what you're trying to get out of it, which is unclear to me given that this is a famous book for which many other sources exist. early draft? historical interest?
04:50:43<za3k>Drexler wants to put it online in a format accessible to e-readers
04:52:31<za3k>It seems plausible to me that good OCR and a human editor might be easier than converting formats, but I'm not the person directly involved, just the person they asked "hey, how do we convert this?"
04:53:12<thuban>huh, i kind of assumed there would be a complete ebook edition already. that seems plausible to me too
04:53:26<za3k>There is an OCR-ed pdf on archive.org
04:53:46<za3k>But I assume it's inaccurate and (relative to a correct epub version) quite large and hard to reflow, etc
04:54:07<thuban>slap it through calibre, ship it, nanoscale viable product
04:55:35<za3k>:)
04:55:46<za3k>it it was me posting it i would
04:55:55<za3k>anyway i'm off, thanks for help
04:56:23<thuban>np, let me know whether you get anywhere
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05:13:23<fireonlive>http://outliners.scripting.com/images/MORE%203.0%20QR%20pg%2010.jpg
05:13:33<fireonlive>surprise, the no-https truther has a shitty WAF or something
05:13:35<fireonlive><_<
05:14:15<Doranwen>za3k: I'm running LibreOffice 5 on this comp, lol, not sure that would help you any.
05:14:35<Doranwen>5.1.6.2, to be exact
05:15:12<fireonlive>hmm, you could try to open this file: https://germinate.za3k.com/pub/tmp/TechBook.sent.Feb92__GPa-fix.Feb92__GPa-fix.Feb92__GPa-fi
05:15:34<fireonlive>should be 'mwaw' format
05:18:38<Doranwen>I told it to open with LibreOffice in general (no idea on extension or anything, I used curl to dump it to a file I just called "book" for lack of anything better) and it opened in Writer with a lot of garbage symbols. Perhaps an extension on it might tell LO what to do with it?
05:19:29<Doranwen>There was a little actual text but it all ended up like two pages long when all was said and done. I have a feeling most of that wasn't opened properly.
05:20:02<Doranwen>Is the extension actually mwaw?
05:24:38<fireonlive>hmm looks like it might not have used an extension? but not too sure.. maybe thuban would know more
05:27:12<thuban>macs of that era didn't use extensions, filetype data was stored in the resource fork
05:28:57<Doranwen>Gotcha. No worries, I just wondered if there was any better way to tell LO what to do with it.
05:29:02<Doranwen>It didn't handle it well.
05:31:31<Doranwen>It honestly worked better just trying to open it in an old Firefox browser than in Writer.
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07:19:10<fireonlive>another day soon 😢
07:54:05<pabs>https://thenib.com/im-a-luddite/
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11:59:22<pabs>https://www.aikidev.net/~vagrant/talks/2023/fossy/Breaking_the_Chains_of_Trusting_Trust.pdf
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14:29:08<@JAA><+rss> Linux Hits All-Time High of 3% of Desktop PC Share After 30 Years: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/linux-hits-3-percent-client-pc-market-share https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36767330
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14:29:21<@JAA>2023 is the year of Linux desktops!
14:36:03<@JAA>'Linux has nearly half of the desktop OS Linux market' :-) https://www.theregister.com/2023/07/18/linux_desktop_debate/
14:59:04<Doranwen>I'm giggling at the final sentence: "As it is, the Fedora lot think Ubuntu is junk, and the Debianisti think everything else is junk, and the Arch folk think they are the true cutting edge, Slackware enthusiasts consider everyone else newbies, while the NixOS folk think all the rest are still in the stone age somewhere…"
15:00:14<joepie91|m>wow, I guess NixOS has truly gone mainstream now
15:00:21<joepie91|m>how did this happen
15:00:40<joepie91|m>(being mentioned in something that is not explicitly about NixOS)
15:03:14<hexa->as a NixOS person I think most other distros provide more of the same :3
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16:02:42<za3k>Doranwen: I would try .mwaw2
16:02:52<za3k>But yeah I don't think it's going to work
16:06:19<Doranwen>Yeah, I just get the same 2-page mostly garbage result.
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16:34:04<fireonlive>https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/big-tech-can-transfer-europeans-data-to-us-in-win-for-facebook-and-google/
16:35:13<@JAA>Max Schrems files a suit in 3... 2... 1...
16:36:33<@JAA>Ah yes, there it is in the last part of the article. :-)
16:41:44<za3k>Thanks for giving it a try
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16:52:07<fireonlive>:)
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17:50:49<fireonlive>https://www.mozilla.org/en-CA/firefox/welcome/15/?v=2
17:50:59<fireonlive>apparently Mozilla's VPN is my "summer vacation must-have"
17:51:13<fireonlive>or so it said when i opened firefox
18:10:04<fireonlive>ah! got my personal appeal: https://transfer.archivete.am/inline/TsGCc/1689703751.png
18:13:24<nukke>tbf VPNs are a must-have when using public wifi
18:13:36<nukke>So airports, hotels, restaurants
18:14:05<nukke>Especially if flying to a country with "unique" laws
18:14:33<joepie91|m>ehhhh
18:14:59<joepie91|m>there are some circumstances where using a VPN service is an improvement over not doing so, but "public wifi" categorically is not one of them
18:15:22<joepie91|m>nearly everything uses TLS nowadays and your exposure even to an actively malicious wifi AP will be very limited
18:16:25<joepie91|m>'dubious laws' could be a valid reason though
18:16:32<spirit>is there an public url archive site that lets one spoof the referrer?
18:16:44<joepie91|m>but then it isn't limited to wifi
18:16:51<@JAA>You're assuming it isn't hijacking DNS traffic. Browsers still don't try HTTPS first unless it's a known or recently visited site.
18:17:43<spirit>and you never know if the wifi is set up with AP isolation etc
18:18:54<joepie91|m>that seems like an argument for https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere/set-https-default-your-browser, not for VPN services
18:18:58<@JAA>(Firefox in private windows does, but other browsers don't to my knowledge.)
18:19:32<nicolas17>I think Firefox also tries https if http doesn't work
18:19:34<fireonlive>ye, depending on where i'm doing maybe i shouldn't open grindr over default-dns
18:19:49<@JAA>SNI will expose the hostname anyway.
18:20:01<@JAA>RIP ESNI
18:20:01<fireonlive>true
18:20:02<nicolas17>which is really annoying when I try to load http://192.168.0.1 and it fails, and it tries https, and it also fails
18:20:03<fireonlive>rip
18:20:17<nicolas17>then when my router finally finishes rebooting, I press F5 and it doesn't work because it's trying https
18:20:28<fireonlive>nicolas17: safari takes it a step further and adds www. :D
18:20:35<fireonlive>www.192.168.0.1 anyone?
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18:20:38<nicolas17>/o\
18:20:39<fireonlive>🤦
18:21:03<@JAA>nicolas17: My router redirects to a provider subdomain that resolves to 192.168.1.1 iff you use the router's DNS and serves a TLS cert valid for the domain.
18:21:29<@JAA>If you resolve the subdomain directly with a recursive resolver, it goes into the abyss.
18:21:42<@JAA>So I have to use https://192.168.1.1/ and ignore the cert warning.
18:21:57<nicolas17>does that mean your router has the private key for that cert?
18:22:08<joepie91|m>(SNI is why I mentioned that in a country with dubious laws, the problem is not limited to wifi)
18:22:13<@JAA>I can't imagine it doesn't.
18:22:21<fireonlive>is it like unique?
18:22:29<fireonlive><customer-id>.isp.example
18:23:12<nicolas17>extract the private key and get the cert revoked
18:23:55<fireonlive>but first cause some disturbance in #dev-security-policy with a nice blog post
18:23:57<fireonlive>:D
18:24:22<@JAA>fireonlive: No, it's something like 'router.provider.tld'.
18:24:37<fireonlive>ahh interesting
18:25:01<fireonlive>there's been a lot of those 'coming out of the woodwork' with applications needing to talk to the local machine over the years that haven't worked out well
18:26:02<@JAA>I'm not really sure *why* they're doing TLS either. You're in the local network, connected via Ethernet or secure WiFi. Like, what exactly is the attack vector here?
18:26:26<fireonlive>arp spoofing!
18:26:34<fireonlive>but yeah lol
18:26:56<fireonlive>wonder if they need a https-only feature (unlikely) or just wanted that 'not secure' warning to go away
18:28:04<@JAA>Those features usually exempt local IPs anyway.
18:28:16<fireonlive>hmm thought it was just localhost
18:28:18<nicolas17>I think there is an exemption specifically for 127.0.0.1 and ::1
18:28:57<@JAA>Hmm
18:29:30<@JAA>I never had issues before the router update in Firefox private windows, which does have HTTPS first enabled.
18:29:58<fireonlive>ah they probably don't use any of the gated features
18:30:05<@JAA>I see there's a dom.security.https_only_mode.upgrade_local config option.
18:30:06<nicolas17>ah no I'm mixing things up
18:30:15<fireonlive>can't remember what's https onlyatm other than stuff like webgpu maybe
18:30:20<fireonlive>oh and location
18:30:48<nicolas17>there is an exemption to allow https websites to do XHR to 127.0.0.1 and ::1 without "mixed content warning" issues, since otherwise companies were doing cursed stuff to get TLS there
18:31:23<@JAA>Ah, interesting.
18:31:24<fireonlive>joepie91|m: is there a good garbage collection method that you know of? AFAICT all we can do is just wait and see, and even then it seems that they may not be able to find out which files are exactly dereferenced in encrypted chats since the file IDs are also encrypted...
18:31:32<nicolas17>like desktop.spotify.com or something resolving to 127.0.0.1, having a valid signed TLS certificate, and the private key embedded in the client
18:31:35<joepie91|m>fireonlive: (cont.) https://social.pixie.town/@joepie91/110730931784937039
18:31:42<fireonlive>thanks :)
18:32:10<fireonlive>like i'm pretty sure i sent a 300MB test file at one point and then 'deleted' it in a encrypted chat but lol it's stuck there unless i go digging (though that one is easy to find)
18:32:34<nicolas17>which got revoked as soon as someone extracted the private key
18:32:50<fireonlive>the private key is gone, but AIUI the actual blob is there
18:33:01<fireonlive>and taking up space in /var/lib/synapse
18:33:21<fireonlive>oh
18:33:25<fireonlive>mixing myself up
18:33:39<@JAA>nicolas17: Sounds like I have a fun challenge ahead of me on a slow day. :-)
18:33:41<fireonlive>the spotify thing was fun :D
18:34:31<fireonlive>i think out of that event and people finding lots of stuff that did that sort of thing digicert even created an automated revoke the cert if you have the private key API
18:34:49<fireonlive>but it's been a while since i was balls to the wall in on the CA space drama
18:35:03<fireonlive>partially why i made the rss channel so i could kinda watch it from afar lol
18:36:55<fireonlive>7 years!
18:37:04<fireonlive>for a sound change o_O
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18:37:57<fireonlive>people are hailing element-x, the total rewrite (at least for iOS?) as the saviour of element but oof i imagine that's going to have the same "internal" problems too
18:38:09<fireonlive>internal-organizational problems
18:40:55joepie91|m remembers RiotX
18:41:05<joepie91|m>which was the previous total rewrite that was gonna fix all the issues honest I swear
18:41:12<joepie91|m>this became Element
18:41:22<joepie91|m>admittedly iOS got skipped over for that but uhhh
18:41:35<joepie91|m>the problems are really not just in the code but in the processes
18:43:14<joepie91|m>(I should note that this is not subtweeting them; I've told the Element people this to their face a long time ago, and to their credit they've tried to make changes but I don't think they've really pulled it off, and the lack of transparency and community interaction is a big part of that I think)
18:43:41<joepie91|m>'to their face' sounds a bit more aggressive than that was intended 😅
18:48:44<joepie91|m>but yeah, bottom line, even though Matrix itself has a lot of potential, and the general goals of focus on UX and such are good, I don't have a lot of faith in Element being the ones to pull it off
18:50:56<joepie91|m>also, obligatory sidenote that even with these issues, Element is still making more progress in mainstream adoptability than I've seen XMPP or IRC do in years...
18:52:49<fireonlive>ahh riotx eh lmao
18:53:14<fireonlive>yeah that's fair on the progress front
18:54:06<fireonlive>i use it with a friend or a two and the big pain point â„¢ at the moment is just sharing stuff to element (share sheets) and stuff like bigger videos where it says share it directly in the app or it'll look like poop
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20:28:58<fireonlive><+rss> Llama 2: an open-source LLM: https://www.interconnects.ai/p/llama-2-from-meta https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36775173
20:29:00<fireonlive>censored, ofc :(
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20:32:49<Exorcism|m>https://is-pepito-out.vercel.app/
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20:37:22<jacksonchen666>b move 7
20:37:47<jacksonchen666>sorry for that random crap, forgot a slash...
20:40:43<fireonlive>jacksonchen666: they still let me talk here, so you're good
20:41:11<jacksonchen666>i noticed jamesp pretty much stopped posting stuff on their fedi accounts, anyone knows what happened?
20:42:59<@JAA>msg NickServ IDENTIFY Hunter2
20:44:34<fireonlive>boo
20:45:44<fireonlive>not sure about jamesp unfortunately, hopefully someone is
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21:42:42<fireonlive>https://twitter.com/windaesthetic/status/1681418721984671745
21:57:25<fireonlive>https://nitter.net/WindAesthetic/status/1681418924225712128
21:57:31<fireonlive>some more cool stuff, and a google drive link
21:58:06<fireonlive>for your slurping pleasures
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