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00:41:01sonick (sonick) joins
00:45:22<myself>"we fried our test devi^H^H^H^H^H WE MEANT TO DO THAT"
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01:16:28<joepie91|m>lol
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01:22:38<JTL>pabs: To answer my own question from the other channel I was probably thinking of: https://www.tubearchivist.com/ Later to see how well it actually works.
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04:32:56<nicolas17>I'm off to sleep before I find a way to punch zone559 over the internet
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08:38:51<immibis>Hans5958: for 15 years the federal reserve was giving out free money to banks to lend out on its behalf. When there's lots of something then it's cheap. Interest rates were nearly zero meaning you (a company) could buy servers and stuff and basically not pay them back at all
08:41:11<immibis>Unrelated: Twitter is now offering unlimited storage (2GB or 8GB per tweet?) for the price of Twitter Blue
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10:10:30<immibis>sadly "no politics" is not a good rule in a world where everything is political
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11:10:40<icedice><immibis> sadly "no politics" is not a good rule in a world where everything is political
11:10:44<icedice>Probably necessary though
11:10:49<@OrIdow6>We do not have rules here
11:11:40<icedice>I've seen what happens in a Discord server that allowed politics
11:12:19<icedice>Two people turned it into a shitshow when they were given a soap box to talk bullshit on
11:13:09<icedice>Had to listen to them going on and on about stuff for like a week non-stop
11:14:03<icedice>Then I got one of them to lose their shit and politics got banned in the Discord server unless it's relevant to the server's topics
11:14:09<icedice>Good times
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11:14:57<@OrIdow6>Politics is frequently relevant to ArchiveTeam which is all the more reason to keep it out of the main channels
11:15:34<@OrIdow6>Since it's very easy to go from "this politician is doing X which may affect website Y" to "this politician is the devil"
11:16:15<@OrIdow6>And since we risk being seen as biased
11:16:38<icedice>I think the Discord server I'm in handled it pretty well:
11:16:44<icedice>"Don't start divisive conversations about political topics not related to what this Discord server is about. Subjects like upcoming laws and court cases related to topics like tech, piracy, privacy, import taxation, and so on that are relevant to this Discord server, like anything covered on TorrentFreak, are exempt. Just don't intentionally make it divisive and start drama about it."
11:17:27<icedice>Though I'm biased since I wrote that rule (I'm a mod in that Discord)
11:18:03<@OrIdow6>Personally I 1000% prefer that ArchiveTeam doesn't really have rules and it's more just "if you act like a moron, you'll be banned", but yeah, that's in the vein of what I think ought to/does usually happen here
11:18:23<icedice>Yeah
11:18:42<icedice>I mean, as long as it can self-regulate, rules aren't really needed, I guess
11:18:57<icedice>Everyone on here seems mature and able to behave from what I've seen
11:19:04<icedice>So that's promising
11:24:23<Barto>the difficulty of entry here is also bigger, irc vs discord
12:17:26<icedice>Yeah
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12:22:38<icedice>I'd also expect people here to be older in general
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12:41:20<SketchCow>Well, and it has a complete asshole of a figurehead
12:58:38<Barto>at least you haven't bought twitter ;-)
14:00:40<masterX244>And that guy is warming up the shredders, too :(
14:01:03<masterX244>Sucks that the shredders are going brrrrrrrt everywhere at
14:01:08<masterX244>*atm
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19:20:30<@JAA>immibis: tweetfs when?
19:21:41<immibis>icedice: "no politics" is itself political. It basically asserts you have to be okay with whatever politics are already happening or fuck off. Also by defining what counts as politics you can push whatever agenda you like
19:21:51<immibis>JAA: when someone actually does it
19:23:42<@JAA>immibis: Oh look, someone already did it 12 years ago: https://github.com/rw/tweetfs
19:23:51<spirit>"don't go into political discussions" is a perfectly fine conversation guideline to have in a technical community, now stfu
19:53:03<@JAA>Why does awscli try to be so clever when it's actually so stupid? *old man yells at cloud*
19:53:29<fireonlive>thank you to everyone involved in grab-site!
19:53:33<fireonlive>it's really cool
19:54:18<@JAA>You mean the largely unmaintained pile of scrap metal over there? Yeah, it is. :-)
19:54:32<fireonlive>xD
19:54:33<@JAA>As opposed to wpull, which is an unmaintained pile of *rusty* scrap metal.
19:54:52<fireonlive>i respet the 'gotta go fast' 'mvp'
19:54:58<fireonlive>i do a lot of that in my dayjob
19:55:10<@JAA>Meh, grab-site is slow. :-P
19:55:13<fireonlive>'oh boy what mess of python did I poop out but hey it's helping people'
19:55:33<fireonlive>a bit yeah :p
19:58:46<fireonlive>oh right i can't just paste images here
19:58:55<fireonlive>https://www.lpsg.com on 05-18; 83,402.5 MB in 713,179 resp. at 4.5/s, 6,848,114 in q.; 8 con. w/ 100 ms delay;
19:59:08<fireonlive>probably not going to be done in time; but at least i ignore listed it down from 12 million links
19:59:10<fireonlive>lol
21:14:11<immibis>spirit: it doesn't work for reasons already mentioned
21:14:38<immibis>like, you can't go into an archiveteam channel and just NOT talk about elon musk deleting twitter accounts
21:15:15<spirit>you can do that while staying in a technical context on what it means for archiveteam
21:18:59<immibis>in that specific case, sure
21:24:51<fireonlive>completely absolved of anything i'm sad for all the accounts of dead people that will be purged
21:27:53<joepie91|m><icedice> Two people turned it into a shitshow when they were given a soap box to talk bullshit on
21:27:53<joepie91|m>thing is, that isn't a result of politics being allowed, that's a result of bad moderation
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21:28:28<joepie91|m>I am in multiple communities that explicitly allow political discussion, and that, because there's actual moderation taking place, have no issues with this at all
21:29:29<joepie91|m>this whole trope of "talking politics means the death of a community" is based in... how do I put this politely... a rather selective view of community management that takes "avoid moderating if at all possible" as a baseline assumption, and doesn't critically introspect on that decision
21:29:42<joepie91|m>it's not actually reality
21:30:03<immibis>it ends up forcing a particular kind of politics that is not "no politics", since the latter is impossible
21:30:10<joepie91|m>exactly
21:30:14<immibis>sort of "shut up and do as you're told" politics
21:30:15<andrew>also the reality is that such "no politics" rules are too often taken advantage of by neo-Nazis when they take over a community
21:30:43<immibis>X can tell Y to do Z but if Y complains about it that's politics
21:30:47<joepie91|m>generally that particular kind of politics is "the prevailing status quo, which either does not cause friction, or where friction can easily be cut down because the majority is opposed to the friction", ie. oppressive politics
21:31:18<immibis>MLK said something about the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice. That's the politics you get if your politics is "shut up about politics"
21:31:40<immibis>(not to suggest that only white people can do it; that was just the relevant group for MLK)
21:31:46<spirit>what political issues do you suggest to discuss in archiveteam contexts?
21:32:00<joepie91|m>someone came up with a good litmus test a while ago: "if a nazi comes into the community and someone says "fuck you" to them, who gets banned?" and the answer is that if you have a "no politics" community, it's very likely the person who said "fuck you" because the only thing that's considered is "does there seem to be conflict" and not "what are the real, material consequences of this person's existence/ideology/behaviour for others?"
21:32:16<joepie91|m>it moderates on noise, not on harm
21:32:57<immibis>spirit: none in particular, but I don't suggest a "no politics" rule either. Why do you think the only options are no politics or mandatory politics?
21:33:26<joepie91|m>spirit: it seems to me that, for example, Musk's attacks on IA and the relation of that to historical cases of authoritarian/fascist figures trying to burn institutions of knowledge, is pretty clearly both political *and* materially relevant to Archive Team
21:33:37<joepie91|m>(and that is just a very obvious example, there are many much less obvious ones)
21:34:09<joepie91|m>so basically what immibis said
21:34:36<joepie91|m>if someone is deliberately trying to incite trouble on some irrelevant topic, sure, completely fine reason to tell them to knock it off - but that's not what a "no politics" rule means
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21:36:02<spirit>is that really "political" though (ESL here!)? or is it discussing events of $arbitrary kind that concern this group's activities?
21:36:33<joepie91|m>(to be clear, I think there were some comments in the conversation around Musk/IA in -bs that shouldn't have been put there - but that's not because they were political!)
21:37:20<spirit>it seems futile to discuss the misguided and crazy political beliefs of musk, we'd probably be just an echo chamber or it would be a wall of text between few people online at the same time
21:37:53<joepie91|m>spirit: well, that's the problem with politics; something that's obvious and self-evident to one person is not necessarily obvious to another. there's the very strict definition of "politics" to basically mean "electoral party politics", but the broader definition of "politics" is much harder to pin down because it encompasses pretty much any point of societal conflict that affects people's lives and material situations
21:38:12<joepie91|m>and to one person, some stance may be highly controversial, while to another person it seems obvious that there's only one correct answer
21:38:50<joepie91|m>like, probably everyone in here agrees that burning libraries is a bad thing - but that is not a universal view outside of archiveteam circles, and that's a contributor to what eg. Musk does
21:39:19<joepie91|m>this absolutely makes it political, in the broader sense (and the conversation around it was knocked off as "no politics here")
21:40:01<joepie91|m>and that also makes it important to be able to talk about the political implications of it, because it's clear that you can't expect the whole world to just Do The Right Thing automagically
21:40:58<joepie91|m>for example: is it necessary to make an active collective push against Musk's attacks on IA, because otherwise it might escalate to a point where it sways public opinion and actually puts IA at serious risk? that's very much a political conversation to have, in the broader sense
21:41:44<joepie91|m>all these complexities are why a "no politics" rule doesn't work, and why moderation should instead be on harm/effects and bad-faith behaviour
21:43:11<joepie91|m>if that makes sense
21:44:44<spirit>well said! and i agree because this is something with a (pretty) direct impact on AT
21:47:37<spirit>I'd be really put off though if people started to discuss random US state's insane shenanigans on unrelated things or $random_country's elections (except obviously for archiving and documenting)
21:48:06<joepie91|m>yeah, I don't personally care much for electoral politics either, and prefer to think about it as little as possible
21:48:29<joepie91|m>given how there's generally not much substance to it
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21:49:29<joepie91|m> but I consider political topics in the broader sense to be very important, particularly when in some way relevant to the community in question (which can be obvious, like with the Musk thing, or less obvious, like topics like consent or "who are getting scared away from participation by the culture", etc.)
21:49:42<joepie91|m>things that actually have a material impact, where there's actual substance to discuss, so to say
22:17:52<seefoe>personally, I'd prefer there not to be any political discussions (unless directly relevant) -- the earlier conversations made me feel a little uncomfortable, when arkiver stepped in the other day in #archiveteam-bs, I actually felt a sense of relief. I don't really have any skin in the game, but I feel like an archival project should carry the same
22:17:53<seefoe>atmosphere as an open-source project/wiki project
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22:26:35<immibis>most projects also should not have blanket "no politics" rules
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