| 00:32:52 | <Sylirana> | Wayward: Nice! :-) How well does work to have several HDDs connected over USB at once? I've always used SATA whenever it was possible, up to the point of just pulling some SATA cables through the case and hotplugging them as if they were USB, since I am a bit concerned about the speeds. I have noticed increased latency (sometimes as much as no input at all for 1-2 seconds) for my mouse and keyboard when transferring a lot of data |
| 00:32:52 | <Sylirana> | to/from even just 1 USB drive. This happens on USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 (although the mouse and keyboard themselves are using 2.0). It should also be noted that the mouse and keyboard are completely independent from each other. One is wired, the other one has a wireless receiver, so I doubt it's something specific to the keyboard/mouse. |
| 00:33:24 | <Sylirana> | *does it |
| 00:45:35 | <Wayward> | Sylirana: It's fine, but the drives really are just write-once-read-many for the most part, until I reorganize them. I've never noticed any speed dips with USB specifically from multiple drives operating in tandem, as long as you're not reading/writing the same drive at the same time with multiple processes. |
| 00:46:43 | <Wayward> | I always do full sequential copies from a full drive to an empty drive, so it's fresh and tidy without fragment. |
| 00:48:06 | <Wayward> | (or write-once-read-never as the case may be) |
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| 00:51:00 | <Sylirana> | Hmm it might just be something with my USB controller then. It happens regardless of the OS used. |
| 00:52:19 | <Wayward> | the slow part is doing a full read verification that the copy is good. but who's in a hurry |
| 00:52:55 | <Wayward> | then format the old full drive and use it for data/mash |
| 00:53:38 | <Wayward> | or as the next empty drive awaiting a backup |
| 00:55:08 | <Sylirana> | Ahh this reminds me of the "fun" process of checking a drive before I trust it with anything... |
| 00:56:38 | <Wayward> | they are supposed to be good for millions of copies, and I never buy used drives, so the verification pass is as good as a full drive check |
| 00:58:38 | <Wayward> | and I use sha checksum files |
| 01:03:09 | <Sylirana> | I just fill the entire drive and check it (and afterwards clear it again so I don't have random bytes in empty sapce, just in case I do need to create a full image for some reason) whenever I buy a new one. Just in case there is some manufacturing issue or so. I have also never bought any used drives, there's SMART data, yes, but you never know exactly how they were treated or whether the board was swapped. |
| 01:10:28 | <Wayward> | that's another thing about many USB enclosed drives, is they don't pass SMART data. The USB->ATA/SCSI interface often doesn't carry support |
| 01:10:43 | <Wayward> | at least, I think, especially for Western Digital drives |
| 01:12:49 | <Sylirana> | I actually have a USB WD connected currently and that's reporting all SMART data, just like the ones connected with SATA. |
| 01:15:28 | <Wayward> | which one? |
| 01:17:15 | <Sylirana> | WD Elements 5TB (Desktop version). |
| 01:19:44 | <Sylirana> | Not sure if it's shuckable, but taking it apart would probably break the heart of the person that gifted it to me (new). |
| 01:19:46 | <Wayward> | yeah, none of my Elements report SMART, but my Toshiba USB does |
| 01:20:07 | <Sylirana> | Maybe it's just the 3.5" Elements that do, then? |
| 01:20:20 | <Wayward> | I have two 12's |
| 01:20:47 | <Sylirana> | Trying to find a suitable image host so I can share a screenshot... o.O |
| 01:21:27 | <Wayward> | I don't *think* i have anything goofy with my bios or drivers to disable SMART, and only selectively on the Elements drives |
| 01:21:36 | <Sylirana> | Mabye it depends on what's inside then? Mine just seems to have a WD Blue inside. |
| 01:21:44 | <Sylirana> | *Maybe |
| 01:22:13 | <Wayward> | i'm sure the disks themselves support SMART. This tends to be a controller emulation layer issue. |
| 01:22:23 | <Wayward> | SMART is already an emulation of SCSI to ATA |
| 01:22:44 | <atphoenix> | Wayward, thanks for the pic. Also, Sylirana, I've found that USB drives tend to go to sleep after a while. This leads to a 1-2 second spin up lag later. |
| 01:23:06 | <Wayward> | https://www.smartmontools.org/wiki/Supported_USB-Devices |
| 01:23:15 | <Wayward> | Western Digital isn't even mentioned on this website |
| 01:23:36 | <Sylirana> | Yes I thought maybe it has to do with whether it's shuckable (and has the "proper" controller) or just that other odd board... |
| 01:23:58 | <atphoenix> | I've had good results reading SMART data from USB drives on Windows using CrystalDiskInfo |
| 01:24:20 | <Wayward> | that's hard to tell because they are rarely consistent with the insides |
| 01:25:05 | <Wayward> | WD's USB drives, I think, tend to be made largely as a secondary afterthought market, using whatever leftover drives they have from other markets, to give them purpose. |
| 01:25:19 | <Sylirana> | atphoenix: I stopped letting mine sleep as that was getting really annoying over time because of that reason and it's also not super healthy for a drive to power on and off multiple times per hour for 24 hours a day, I'd assume. |
| 01:25:21 | <Wayward> | Sometimes they're full retail drives with a full SATA interface. Sometimes not. |
| 01:25:38 | <Wayward> | Just depends on their internal supply and marketing chain |
| 01:26:09 | <Wayward> | "we've got all these leftover XBOX drives, what to do with them?" |
| 01:26:29 | <Wayward> | "Stick 'um in USB enclosures and sell them fast." |
| 01:26:34 | <Sylirana> | Is there any screenshot/image sharing site you could recommend? Preferrably something where I can just past an image from clipboard... |
| 01:27:09 | <Wayward> | Sylirana: imgur.com is easy, drag drop from file explorer to browser window |
| 01:27:32 | <Wayward> | in Windows, grab the open source software ShareX for easy screenshot / right-click upload image sharing |
| 01:28:05 | <Wayward> | or uploads from clipboard |
| 01:28:08 | <Sylirana> | Yea I've never received one of those "white label" drives before. I usually just buy internal ones directly. We don't get those sales over here. |
| 01:28:58 | <Sylirana> | Wasn't there some site that required no software and no registration? Not sure if it's still around. I've used it a while back... |
| 01:29:18 | <Wayward> | ingur doesn't require registration |
| 01:29:32 | <Wayward> | I don't remember if you can just Ctrl+V a clipboard image. Probably. |
| 01:31:58 | <Sylirana> | Ah, found it. |
| 01:32:05 | <Sylirana> | https://pasteboard.co/JOHx020.png |
| 01:33:34 | <Wayward> | You did say you're over the pond, so probably a very different supply chain there, as well |
| 01:33:57 | <Wayward> | and also, much smaller drive capacity, different use cases |
| 01:33:59 | <atphoenix> | that looks like a screenshot from CrystalDiskInfo :) |
| 01:34:37 | <Wayward> | i want to know why smartmontools doesn't acknowledge Western Digital's very existence |
| 01:34:49 | <Sylirana> | Yes that's proably the case. And yep that's CDI! :-) |
| 01:35:38 | <Sylirana> | Don't know about this USB drive, but the SATA ones from WD always worked fine with smartmontools for me. |
| 01:36:38 | <@JAA> | Ditto. SMART over USB is just a pain. I have a few Seagate externals, and they don't work by default either. Need to disable uas I believe. |
| 01:36:43 | <Wayward> | i mean, the website doesn't acknowledge the brand as neither Supported nor Unsupported |
| 01:36:45 | <Sylirana> | Speaking of HDDs, when would you stop trusting an old drive and move the data to a new one? |
| 01:37:28 | <@JAA> | When it fails. That's what backups are for. :-) |
| 01:37:41 | <Wayward> | JAA: what's the process of toggling UAS |
| 01:37:42 | <atphoenix> | when it fails or is too small |
| 01:38:12 | <Wayward> | Sylirana: when I have to rebuild the MFT/FAT |
| 01:38:35 | <Wayward> | or it produces tick-tocks that are more than just related to rare sleep spinup hiccup |
| 01:38:54 | <Sylirana> | If one can afford that... Unfortuantely I can't and only have a few select things backed up to multiple drives. :S |
| 01:39:18 | <Wayward> | or I have a good excuse to give somebody a harddrive filled with 10 hours of me picking my nose in slow motion |
| 01:39:33 | <atphoenix> | I also change drives when I get nervous about one because of 'spooky things happening' with it like not behaving as I'd expect |
| 01:39:42 | <@JAA> | Wayward: Annoying. You have to write the vendor and product IDs to some file in /sys. Looking for my notes. |
| 01:39:57 | <Wayward> | JAA: intrigued |
| 01:40:09 | <Wayward> | Is this doable from a Windows machine |
| 01:40:25 | <@JAA> | Oh, Windows, I have no idea. |
| 01:40:32 | <@JAA> | Haven't used that in a decade. :-) |
| 01:40:43 | <Wayward> | I'll look it up now that I know what to look for. Thanks |
| 01:40:49 | <@JAA> | On Linux: echo "0x0bc2:0xab38:u" > /sys/module/usb_storage/parameters/quirks |
| 01:41:12 | <Wayward> | that is special |
| 01:41:20 | <@JAA> | Oh yeah, and no device with that vendor/product ID must be connected when you apply this, IIRC. |
| 01:41:29 | <Sylirana> | If it wasn't for my pretty slow connection, I'd encrypt and back up things at least to GSuite, but... With 0.5-1 MBit/s upload and 30+ TB to back up, that's not really an option... :') |
| 01:41:58 | <atphoenix> | Gsuite unlimited is basically game over |
| 01:42:12 | <Sylirana> | How so? |
| 01:42:29 | <atphoenix> | no longer offered... |
| 01:42:42 | <Wayward> | Sylirana: I trust those 5 TB "portable" drives by WD. Write the backups of your last 40 years of photos, stick it in your fire safe, forget that you own the drive unless the fire department shows up. |
| 01:42:56 | <Sylirana> | Yes, there has been some change, but first of all, existing accounts are grandfathered in and keep it for the same price. |
| 01:43:03 | <Wayward> | they're not even the helium filled kind, so they should sit fine for ages |
| 01:43:16 | <Sylirana> | And second, you can still get unlimited, it's just a bit more hidden and cost slightly more. |
| 01:43:18 | <Wayward> | $89 on Amazon if you stalk the price |
| 01:43:24 | <Sylirana> | *costs |
| 01:43:26 | <@JAA> | Except you're fucked when their USB controller fails again because they're direct-USB, not SATA internally. |
| 01:43:54 | <atphoenix> | Amazon charges $$$ for data egress |
| 01:44:07 | <Wayward> | lol retail data egress |
| 01:44:09 | <Sylirana> | My trust in 2.5" drives is somewhat limited... |
| 01:44:23 | <Wayward> | why's that? |
| 01:44:41 | <Wayward> | they're built to withstand 4 ft laptop drops |
| 01:44:46 | <@JAA> | Sylirana: Curios, where's that hidden unlimited option? |
| 01:44:50 | <@JAA> | Curious* |
| 01:44:51 | <atphoenix> | Sylirana, pointer to the info about Google Workplace unlimited? |
| 01:45:05 | <@JAA> | The one I saw was for 300+ users or something like that. |
| 01:45:12 | <Sylirana> | They're more fragile, at least when running, from what I've seen and heard from others. |
| 01:45:30 | <Wayward> | news to me |
| 01:45:43 | <atphoenix> | 2.5" Seagate Slims with shingling = suck |
| 01:46:14 | <Sylirana> | My father had one running on his desk, dropped keys *next* to it and the drive died immediately from the vibration. Might be a rare case, but that's a bit scary... |
| 01:46:30 | <Sylirana> | Fortuantely it was less than a day old with almost no data on it at the time. |
| 01:46:57 | <@JAA> | Maybe he should remove the anvil from his keychain. :-) |
| 01:47:32 | <Sylirana> | And a friend of mine had one in his laptop die while closing it, probably not very softly. |
| 01:47:49 | <atphoenix> | those keychain anvils have been known to destroy car ignition switches, and kill drivers when the switch flips to off, and the steering wheel locks |
| 01:48:15 | <Sylirana> | As for the Google Workspace, let me check what exactly it was called... |
| 01:49:04 | <Wayward> | Sylirana: was the key drop drive enclosed or naked? |
| 01:49:52 | <Wayward> | the WD enclosures are squeezable for probably much that reason. |
| 01:50:53 | <Sylirana> | Uhh Enterpise is the correct one for unlimited storage if you don't have an older account. |
| 01:50:54 | <Sylirana> | https://workspace.google.com/intl/en/pricing.html |
| 01:51:05 | <Sylirana> | "There is no minimum or maximum user limit for Enterprise plans.". |
| 01:51:26 | <Sylirana> | It's around 30$ or so per user iirc. |
| 01:52:45 | <atphoenix> | yes but "Contact sales for pricing". And you know what they say about things for which you must ask the pricing....'if you must ask the price, you can't afford it' |
| 01:53:10 | <Sylirana> | Was a 2.5" USB drive (don't remember which brand, but I think it was WD as well) in it's regular case/shell (the ones those USB drives come with). |
| 01:54:43 | <atphoenix> | if it truly is $30 per user with no minimum...then that's 1 user, which is a better deal than the old way to get unlimited via 5 users x $12 = $60 IIRC |
| 01:55:03 | <Sylirana> | That 5 user limit was never enforced. |
| 01:55:09 | <Sylirana> | I've never had 5 users and still don't. |
| 01:57:05 | <@JAA> | https://old.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/jbjmlm/signed_up_for_the_google_workplace_enterprise/g8xktd4/ |
| 01:57:27 | <@JAA> | I wonder if the people at Google know nowadays whether the limit applies or not on Enterprise accounts. |
| 01:58:56 | <@JAA> | So yeah, better plan for that disappearing... |
| 02:00:47 | <Sylirana> | https://pasteboard.co/JOHIIyI.png |
| 02:01:14 | <Sylirana> | No need to contact sales or anything. Just make the account first and from there you can upgrade on your own. |
| 02:01:15 | <@JAA> | That crap site doesn't work here. |
| 02:01:49 | <Sylirana> | Blocked? o.O |
| 02:01:49 | <@JAA> | https://transfer.notkiska.pw/ |
| 02:05:26 | <@JAA> | JS/ad crap, and the direct image URL blocks access. |
| 02:07:54 | <Sylirana> | https://transfer.notkiska.pw/E7rZG/JOHIIyI.png |
| 02:08:25 | <@JAA> | :-) Not a valid image though. |
| 02:08:53 | <@JAA> | Yeah, you uploaded the HTML page of Pasteboard. |
| 02:08:55 | <Sylirana> | Oh. I see what I did... :D |
| 02:08:58 | <Sylirana> | Yep... |
| 02:09:26 | <@JAA> | By the way, to get rid of the forced download: https://transfer.notkiska.pw/inline/E7rZG/JOHIIyI.png |
| 02:10:16 | <atphoenix> | ^good trick. Did not know. |
| 02:10:41 | <Sylirana> | Ah good to know, thanks. |
| 02:10:45 | <Sylirana> | https://transfer.notkiska.pw/inline/ttc5z/JOHIIyI.png |
| 02:11:07 | <@JAA> | :-) |
| 02:11:10 | <@JAA> | Thanks |
| 02:11:49 | <Sylirana> | Np. :-) |
| 02:14:24 | <@JAA> | Nope, the 5 TB thing is still in the terms: https://workspace.google.com/terms/user_features.html |
| 02:14:55 | <@JAA> | 'Customers that have 5 or more End Users will receive a total amount of Google Drive storage equal to 5TB times the number of End Users, with more storage available at Google's discretion upon reasonable request to Google.' |
| 02:15:10 | <@JAA> | 'Customers that have received a Google for Nonprofits discount or have 4 or fewer End Users will receive 1TB storage in total for Google Drive, Google Photos, and Gmail combined for each End User.' |
| 02:16:14 | <@JAA> | Who knows whether they'll enforce it, like the 5 user thing on GSuite. But it's there, so you can't rely on storing more than 1 TB/user with 1-4 users or 5 TB/user with 5+. |
| 02:17:01 | <Wayward> | Apparently WD goes out of its way to hide S.M.A.R.T. data on some drives, prefering users download and install WD's own diagnostics tools that should help interpret the data better so you don't go asking for RMA returns/refunds over spooky results |
| 02:27:21 | <Sylirana> | Hmm I can only speak for myself. I am currently using over 15 TB and haven't had any issues... |
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| 07:33:06 | <Wayward> | Running a 4 day page scrape makes me very anxious that it'll be fcked up. Maybe it's already fcked up and the next 3 days will be for not. |
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| 21:54:19 | <atphoenix> | Facebook vs Australia: https://about.fb.com/news/2021/02/changes-to-sharing-and-viewing-news-on-facebook-in-australia/ |
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