00:24:27<nstrom|m>thought site was staying up just api was going away, so not really anything to archive there besides documentation
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00:53:43<eggdrop>[remind] OrIdow6: add LJ (https://bsky.app/profile/rahaeli.bsky.social/post/3mbebi2xfxc25) to https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/Shutdown_rumors,_hoaxes,_and_scares while at it
00:53:44<eggdrop>[remind] OrIdow6: add realkalos to hoaxes
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01:20:27<DogsRNice>api going away probably isnt a good sign for the long term health of the site
01:35:22<@JAA>That, and it might be easier to discover all contents through the API.
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01:48:25<nicolas17>JAA: well that could be tricky
01:48:42<katia>it would take some tenor
01:48:52<nicolas17>if I understood correctly, the API will be shut down in June for existing API users, but it's already not possible to get a new API key
01:49:07<katia>find one somewhere
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02:08:59<KerwoodDerby6>Is anyone here concerned with piano roll archiving?
02:09:24<nicolas17>like physical rolls?
02:09:56<KerwoodDerby6>Well, mostly their digitized form
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02:13:06<KerwoodDerby6>20 years ago I became part of a very small community which built their own digitization mechanisms to scan piano rolls, and since then have scanned over 8,000 rolls. I've ceased scanning a couple years ago, but I have info about the file formats we used and the means of converting them to MIDI format.
02:14:07<KerwoodDerby6>I think there might be about 20,000-30,000 rollscans in the world right now
02:15:12<KerwoodDerby6>The best archive of this to date is http://www.pianorollmusic.org/rolldatabase.php
02:15:33<KerwoodDerby6>which I think is suboptimal for the future
02:16:51<nicolas17>many items there have no links, how does that work?
02:17:22<nicolas17>does that mean someone has the roll but didn't scan it? or didn't upload the scan?
02:18:57<KerwoodDerby6>Annoyingly, the titles which have not entered the US public domain will not be linked. Also, titles, which had no publication date when scanned, cannot be assigned a public domain date
02:19:23<nicolas17>I see
02:20:02<KerwoodDerby6>That said, I have a back-channel to access the files as necessary. My query relates to any larger attempt to once-and-for-all get these rolls archived
02:21:12<nicolas17>we could archive this website and all files in it, yes
02:22:55<nicolas17>technical notes for the archivists reading: we can't just archivebot the front page and let it crawl because rolldatabase pagination uses form controls rather than links, but it's all GET, not POST
02:24:00<nicolas17>so I guess we can make a list of all the page numbers and sortby params, and feed that into !a<
02:26:39<KerwoodDerby6>Of course, it gets more complicated -- these rolls have holes punched in them, and the holes have different meanings depending on where on the roll they get punched, but when they are reduced to MIDI that information is lost. There is an intermediate file format (".CIS") which captures the physical, longitudinal image of the roll, which also has
02:26:39<KerwoodDerby6>archival value, but does anyone want to take ownership of such a fiddly, historically-particular, ancient digital music storage medium?
02:28:07<KerwoodDerby6>There were rolls for ordinary home listening, and there were other roll formats which supported expressive musical performance for serious pieces
02:28:39<nicolas17>what do you mean by "take ownership"?
02:29:31<KerwoodDerby6>I guess I mean that a proper archive of piano rolls should probably be curated, and that's asking a lot more than simply copying files
02:29:57<nicolas17>is the IAMMP website still being "maintained"?
02:30:20<KerwoodDerby6>not really, the maintainer is an IT guy for the local public schools
02:31:29<KerwoodDerby6>I just thought I should bring it up here since piano rolls are mentioned in the file-formats part of the wiki
02:35:45<KerwoodDerby6>Well, at least this can be a start of discussion for now. I ran across archiveteam over a year ago and thought that someday I should ask them about piano rolls, which was today, so there's that.
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02:42:15<@JAA>I think it's worth preserving the digital data pre-MIDI-conversion. I'm sure the Internet Archive wouldn't mind accepting such uploads, perhaps as one item per roll containing CIS, MIDI, and (if available) photos of the packaging etc. They'd almost certainly also take the rolls that aren't public domain yet (and just not make them publicly accessible if necessary).
02:48:14<ats>It's a similar kind of deal to archiving computer magtapes/papertapes - it's worth keeping the raw format because there's extra information there, even if most people will use a derivative format.
02:49:01<ats>(Or, for a more dramatic example, RF captures of LaserDiscs, which are about 100 times bigger than the video file you end up with after decoding - there are plenty of those on IA...)
02:51:49<@JAA>Same with floppies and archiving the full magnetic scan with a KryoFlux or similar.
02:51:56<pokechu22>Hmm, for US copyright law, do piano rolls count as a recording, or a composition? (I guess for that matter, how does sheet music count)? I know there are two types of music copyrights but haven't really looked into it beyond that
02:53:26<@JAA>That part sounds like a fun rabbit hole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-Smith_Music_Publishing_Co._v._Apollo_Co.?useskin=vector
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03:45:30<@JAA>https://www.opendiary.com/ is back online, by the way. Still with the shutdown notice for 2026-01-31.
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