| 00:24:27 | <nstrom|m> | thought site was staying up just api was going away, so not really anything to archive there besides documentation |
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| 00:53:43 | <eggdrop> | [remind] OrIdow6: add LJ (https://bsky.app/profile/rahaeli.bsky.social/post/3mbebi2xfxc25) to https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/Shutdown_rumors,_hoaxes,_and_scares while at it |
| 00:53:44 | <eggdrop> | [remind] OrIdow6: add realkalos to hoaxes |
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| 01:20:27 | <DogsRNice> | api going away probably isnt a good sign for the long term health of the site |
| 01:35:22 | <@JAA> | That, and it might be easier to discover all contents through the API. |
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| 01:48:25 | <nicolas17> | JAA: well that could be tricky |
| 01:48:42 | <katia> | it would take some tenor |
| 01:48:52 | <nicolas17> | if I understood correctly, the API will be shut down in June for existing API users, but it's already not possible to get a new API key |
| 01:49:07 | <katia> | find one somewhere |
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| 02:08:59 | <KerwoodDerby6> | Is anyone here concerned with piano roll archiving? |
| 02:09:24 | <nicolas17> | like physical rolls? |
| 02:09:56 | <KerwoodDerby6> | Well, mostly their digitized form |
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| 02:13:06 | <KerwoodDerby6> | 20 years ago I became part of a very small community which built their own digitization mechanisms to scan piano rolls, and since then have scanned over 8,000 rolls. I've ceased scanning a couple years ago, but I have info about the file formats we used and the means of converting them to MIDI format. |
| 02:14:07 | <KerwoodDerby6> | I think there might be about 20,000-30,000 rollscans in the world right now |
| 02:15:12 | <KerwoodDerby6> | The best archive of this to date is http://www.pianorollmusic.org/rolldatabase.php |
| 02:15:33 | <KerwoodDerby6> | which I think is suboptimal for the future |
| 02:16:51 | <nicolas17> | many items there have no links, how does that work? |
| 02:17:22 | <nicolas17> | does that mean someone has the roll but didn't scan it? or didn't upload the scan? |
| 02:18:57 | <KerwoodDerby6> | Annoyingly, the titles which have not entered the US public domain will not be linked. Also, titles, which had no publication date when scanned, cannot be assigned a public domain date |
| 02:19:23 | <nicolas17> | I see |
| 02:20:02 | <KerwoodDerby6> | That said, I have a back-channel to access the files as necessary. My query relates to any larger attempt to once-and-for-all get these rolls archived |
| 02:21:12 | <nicolas17> | we could archive this website and all files in it, yes |
| 02:22:55 | <nicolas17> | technical notes for the archivists reading: we can't just archivebot the front page and let it crawl because rolldatabase pagination uses form controls rather than links, but it's all GET, not POST |
| 02:24:00 | <nicolas17> | so I guess we can make a list of all the page numbers and sortby params, and feed that into !a< |
| 02:26:39 | <KerwoodDerby6> | Of course, it gets more complicated -- these rolls have holes punched in them, and the holes have different meanings depending on where on the roll they get punched, but when they are reduced to MIDI that information is lost. There is an intermediate file format (".CIS") which captures the physical, longitudinal image of the roll, which also has |
| 02:26:39 | <KerwoodDerby6> | archival value, but does anyone want to take ownership of such a fiddly, historically-particular, ancient digital music storage medium? |
| 02:28:07 | <KerwoodDerby6> | There were rolls for ordinary home listening, and there were other roll formats which supported expressive musical performance for serious pieces |
| 02:28:39 | <nicolas17> | what do you mean by "take ownership"? |
| 02:29:31 | <KerwoodDerby6> | I guess I mean that a proper archive of piano rolls should probably be curated, and that's asking a lot more than simply copying files |
| 02:29:57 | <nicolas17> | is the IAMMP website still being "maintained"? |
| 02:30:20 | <KerwoodDerby6> | not really, the maintainer is an IT guy for the local public schools |
| 02:31:29 | <KerwoodDerby6> | I just thought I should bring it up here since piano rolls are mentioned in the file-formats part of the wiki |
| 02:35:45 | <KerwoodDerby6> | Well, at least this can be a start of discussion for now. I ran across archiveteam over a year ago and thought that someday I should ask them about piano rolls, which was today, so there's that. |
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| 02:42:15 | <@JAA> | I think it's worth preserving the digital data pre-MIDI-conversion. I'm sure the Internet Archive wouldn't mind accepting such uploads, perhaps as one item per roll containing CIS, MIDI, and (if available) photos of the packaging etc. They'd almost certainly also take the rolls that aren't public domain yet (and just not make them publicly accessible if necessary). |
| 02:48:14 | <ats> | It's a similar kind of deal to archiving computer magtapes/papertapes - it's worth keeping the raw format because there's extra information there, even if most people will use a derivative format. |
| 02:49:01 | <ats> | (Or, for a more dramatic example, RF captures of LaserDiscs, which are about 100 times bigger than the video file you end up with after decoding - there are plenty of those on IA...) |
| 02:51:49 | <@JAA> | Same with floppies and archiving the full magnetic scan with a KryoFlux or similar. |
| 02:51:56 | <pokechu22> | Hmm, for US copyright law, do piano rolls count as a recording, or a composition? (I guess for that matter, how does sheet music count)? I know there are two types of music copyrights but haven't really looked into it beyond that |
| 02:53:26 | <@JAA> | That part sounds like a fun rabbit hole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-Smith_Music_Publishing_Co._v._Apollo_Co.?useskin=vector |
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| 03:45:30 | <@JAA> | https://www.opendiary.com/ is back online, by the way. Still with the shutdown notice for 2026-01-31. |
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| 04:16:36 | <h2ibot> | PaulWise edited Finding subdomains (+97, status page strategy): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=60109&oldid=58320 |
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| 05:13:40 | <pabs> | KerwoodDerby6: I note that the piano rolls site has an open directory, so looks like we can save everything including non-PD stuff https://www.pianorollmusic.org/html |
| 05:13:52 | <pabs> | https://www.pianorollmusic.org/html/tsmythe/midifiles/NonPDfiles/ |
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| 05:16:24 | <pabs> | KerwoodDerby6: should I just start an ArchiveBot job for https://www.pianorollmusic.org/html? /cc nicolas17 JAA ats pokechu22 |
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| 05:17:35 | <nicolas17> | that would get all the raw data yeah, but not the listings |
| 05:18:11 | <nicolas17> | to get the lists, as I said, we'd need to make a list of all the pages because AB can't crawl that |
| 05:18:42 | <nicolas17> | (and exclude /html to avoid duplication with your job now :p) |
| 05:19:00 | <pabs> | it will get / and then /rolldatabase.php, where are the listings? |
| 05:20:00 | <pabs> | another open dir is https://www.pianorollmusic.org/design/ |
| 05:20:29 | <pabs> | so probably want to do the sitemap trick I guess |
| 05:21:13 | <pabs> | oh, I see https://www.pianorollmusic.org/rolldatabase.php?showpage=26&sortby=catalog |
| 05:21:24 | <nicolas17> | pabs: I mean rolldatabase.php, the pagination uses a <form> so AB won't crawl it |
| 05:21:24 | <pabs> | hmm I thought AB could find those |
| 05:21:35 | <nicolas17> | well |
| 05:21:47 | <nicolas17> | it's not an <a href="?page=2">Next</a> so I *assumed* it won't crawl |
| 05:21:59 | <nicolas17> | if AB is smart enough to parse forms then all the better |
| 05:23:51 | <pokechu22> | It parses <form action=/rolldatabase.php> to https://www.pianorollmusic.org/rolldatabase.php but it won't fill in the rest |
| 05:26:19 | <pokechu22> | https://transfer.archivete.am/inline/PdSFb/www.cagematch.net_seed_urls.txt might be suitable for inspiration (though that site was a bit more complicated) |
| 05:26:22 | <pabs> | ok, sitemap trick then |
| 05:27:01 | <pabs> | ah no, not needed since everything is at the top level |
| 05:27:40 | <pokechu22> | (and that site actually *does* use href for pagination, but not for selecting months/years; I listed all pages mainly so that it would get information about everything at the same depth) |
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| 05:28:34 | <nicolas17> | pabs: https://transfer.archivete.am/inline/BYwFH/pianoroll-rolldatabase.txt |
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| 05:33:58 | <pabs> | nicolas17++ |
| 05:33:59 | <eggdrop> | [karma] 'nicolas17' now has 24 karma! |
| 05:34:06 | <pabs> | will run https://transfer.archivete.am/VYr9M/www.pianorollmusic.org-open-dirs-and-rolldatabase.php-all-pages.txt |
| 05:34:06 | <eggdrop> | inline (for browser viewing): https://transfer.archivete.am/inline/VYr9M/www.pianorollmusic.org-open-dirs-and-rolldatabase.php-all-pages.txt |
| 05:36:19 | <nicolas17> | I think everything else is reachable from / |
| 05:36:28 | <nicolas17> | so that's good |
| 05:37:18 | <pabs> | KerwoodDerby6: going to run https://www.mmdigest.com/ too |
| 05:39:06 | <@arkiver> | justauser: yes on blogs.sapo.pt. that will run a bit closer to the deadline, not yet now |
| 05:39:15 | <pabs> | I couldn't find any other open dirs on pianorollmusic.org btw |
| 05:39:59 | <@arkiver> | https://icosa.gallery/ is nice |
| 05:41:03 | <@arkiver> | so tenor shutdown is not official right? |
| 05:41:08 | <@arkiver> | oh |
| 05:41:32 | <@arkiver> | nvm |
| 05:41:44 | <nicolas17> | arkiver: API shutdown is official, "if they kill the API I bet they'll kill the entire website by next year" is speculation based on Google's track record |
| 05:44:35 | <pabs> | KerwoodDerby6: also https://www.spencerserolls.com/ https://jeffbourdier.github.io/ |
| 05:44:43 | <@arkiver> | time for tenor |
| 05:44:47 | <@arkiver> | thanks nicolas17 |
| 05:44:51 | <@arkiver> | any ideas for a channel name? |
| 05:45:05 | <nicolas17> | also using the API will be tricky |
| 05:45:17 | <Hans5958> | end of tenure idk |
| 05:45:25 | <@arkiver> | deadline june 30 |
| 05:45:33 | <nicolas17> | afaik the API will work until June 30, but you can no longer get new API keys |
| 05:45:45 | <@arkiver> | would someone be able to add that to the deathwatch page? |
| 05:45:55 | <nicolas17> | so where will we find an API key we can abuse |
| 05:46:16 | <@arkiver> | i was thinking more about backing up the entirety of tenor with June 30 as deadline |
| 05:46:25 | <nicolas17> | via website? |
| 05:46:32 | <@arkiver> | yes and API as much as possible |
| 05:46:44 | <@arkiver> | need to look into how tenor is used in other services, if it uses API, etc. |
| 05:46:50 | <@arkiver> | we'd archive the public facing part |
| 05:49:20 | <nicolas17> | hmm... new game launched today https://hytale.com/, a friend was looking to archive every build to avoid what happened with minecraft, where an early build was lost media until someone randomly found it in an old PC backup |
| 05:51:23 | <nicolas17> | there's currently 2 builds but idk how often they'll be patching it |
| 05:52:28 | <nicolas17> | and it's already 1.5GiB x {v1,v2} x {windows,linux,mac} x {release,pre-release} = 18GiB... this could grow fast :p |
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| 06:00:03 | <pabs> | KerwoodDerby6: btw, the AB job for www.pianorollmusic.org is getting some 404s on .mid files, I think there are some typoed links. we will get the real files though |
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| 06:08:50 | <h2ibot> | PaulWise edited Category:Software archiving (+60, add Software Preservation Society): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=60110&oldid=58332 |
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| 06:53:07 | <pabs> | JAA: canonical.com pinged me again, could you send them the relevant AB/etc IP addresses? |
| 06:57:16 | <pabs> | forwarded the mail to AT |
| 06:58:18 | <@JAA> | pabs: Oops, right, ack |
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| 08:13:02 | <h|ca2> | nicolas17: can you deduplicate builds somehow? |
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| 09:35:23 | <Webuser288239> | Hello. A famous Japanese Pokémon BBS will be shutting down tomorrow (2026/15/01 JST). Can anyone help? |
| 09:35:23 | <Webuser288239> | https://pokemonbbs.com/post/ |
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