00:24:27<nstrom|m>thought site was staying up just api was going away, so not really anything to archive there besides documentation
00:31:18s-crypt quits [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)]
00:31:23Ryz2 quits [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)]
00:31:28s-crypt (s-crypt) joins
00:31:35Ryz2 (Ryz) joins
00:34:39lennier2_ joins
00:37:41lennier2 quits [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
00:47:14Island joins
00:47:30benjins3 quits [Remote host closed the connection]
00:47:48benjins3 joins
00:50:49Notrealname1234 (Notrealname1234) joins
00:53:43<eggdrop>[remind] OrIdow6: add LJ (https://bsky.app/profile/rahaeli.bsky.social/post/3mbebi2xfxc25) to https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/Shutdown_rumors,_hoaxes,_and_scares while at it
00:53:44<eggdrop>[remind] OrIdow6: add realkalos to hoaxes
00:55:29Notrealname1234 quits [Client Quit]
00:57:51Notrealname1234 (Notrealname1234) joins
00:58:01Notrealname1234 quits [Client Quit]
01:20:27<DogsRNice>api going away probably isnt a good sign for the long term health of the site
01:35:22<@JAA>That, and it might be easier to discover all contents through the API.
01:42:42sec^nd quits [Remote host closed the connection]
01:43:04sec^nd (second) joins
01:48:25<nicolas17>JAA: well that could be tricky
01:48:42<katia>it would take some tenor
01:48:52<nicolas17>if I understood correctly, the API will be shut down in June for existing API users, but it's already not possible to get a new API key
01:49:07<katia>find one somewhere
02:05:58KerwoodDerby6 joins
02:08:59<KerwoodDerby6>Is anyone here concerned with piano roll archiving?
02:09:24<nicolas17>like physical rolls?
02:09:56<KerwoodDerby6>Well, mostly their digitized form
02:10:05opl9 (opl) joins
02:12:20opl quits [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
02:12:20opl9 is now known as opl
02:13:06<KerwoodDerby6>20 years ago I became part of a very small community which built their own digitization mechanisms to scan piano rolls, and since then have scanned over 8,000 rolls. I've ceased scanning a couple years ago, but I have info about the file formats we used and the means of converting them to MIDI format.
02:14:07<KerwoodDerby6>I think there might be about 20,000-30,000 rollscans in the world right now
02:15:12<KerwoodDerby6>The best archive of this to date is http://www.pianorollmusic.org/rolldatabase.php
02:15:33<KerwoodDerby6>which I think is suboptimal for the future
02:16:51<nicolas17>many items there have no links, how does that work?
02:17:22<nicolas17>does that mean someone has the roll but didn't scan it? or didn't upload the scan?
02:18:57<KerwoodDerby6>Annoyingly, the titles which have not entered the US public domain will not be linked. Also, titles, which had no publication date when scanned, cannot be assigned a public domain date
02:19:23<nicolas17>I see
02:20:02<KerwoodDerby6>That said, I have a back-channel to access the files as necessary. My query relates to any larger attempt to once-and-for-all get these rolls archived
02:21:12<nicolas17>we could archive this website and all files in it, yes
02:22:55<nicolas17>technical notes for the archivists reading: we can't just archivebot the front page and let it crawl because rolldatabase pagination uses form controls rather than links, but it's all GET, not POST
02:24:00<nicolas17>so I guess we can make a list of all the page numbers and sortby params, and feed that into !a<
02:26:39<KerwoodDerby6>Of course, it gets more complicated -- these rolls have holes punched in them, and the holes have different meanings depending on where on the roll they get punched, but when they are reduced to MIDI that information is lost. There is an intermediate file format (".CIS") which captures the physical, longitudinal image of the roll, which also has
02:26:39<KerwoodDerby6>archival value, but does anyone want to take ownership of such a fiddly, historically-particular, ancient digital music storage medium?
02:28:07<KerwoodDerby6>There were rolls for ordinary home listening, and there were other roll formats which supported expressive musical performance for serious pieces
02:28:39<nicolas17>what do you mean by "take ownership"?
02:29:31<KerwoodDerby6>I guess I mean that a proper archive of piano rolls should probably be curated, and that's asking a lot more than simply copying files
02:29:57<nicolas17>is the IAMMP website still being "maintained"?
02:30:20<KerwoodDerby6>not really, the maintainer is an IT guy for the local public schools
02:31:29<KerwoodDerby6>I just thought I should bring it up here since piano rolls are mentioned in the file-formats part of the wiki
02:35:45<KerwoodDerby6>Well, at least this can be a start of discussion for now. I ran across archiveteam over a year ago and thought that someday I should ask them about piano rolls, which was today, so there's that.
02:35:46sknebel (sknebel) joins
02:42:15<@JAA>I think it's worth preserving the digital data pre-MIDI-conversion. I'm sure the Internet Archive wouldn't mind accepting such uploads, perhaps as one item per roll containing CIS, MIDI, and (if available) photos of the packaging etc. They'd almost certainly also take the rolls that aren't public domain yet (and just not make them publicly accessible if necessary).
02:48:14<ats>It's a similar kind of deal to archiving computer magtapes/papertapes - it's worth keeping the raw format because there's extra information there, even if most people will use a derivative format.
02:49:01<ats>(Or, for a more dramatic example, RF captures of LaserDiscs, which are about 100 times bigger than the video file you end up with after decoding - there are plenty of those on IA...)
02:51:49<@JAA>Same with floppies and archiving the full magnetic scan with a KryoFlux or similar.
02:51:56<pokechu22>Hmm, for US copyright law, do piano rolls count as a recording, or a composition? (I guess for that matter, how does sheet music count)? I know there are two types of music copyrights but haven't really looked into it beyond that
02:53:26<@JAA>That part sounds like a fun rabbit hole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-Smith_Music_Publishing_Co._v._Apollo_Co.?useskin=vector
03:01:15nexussfan quits [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
03:03:03nexussfan (nexussfan) joins
03:38:11jinn6 quits [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
03:42:18Hackerpcs quits [Quit: Hackerpcs]
03:45:30<@JAA>https://www.opendiary.com/ is back online, by the way. Still with the shutdown notice for 2026-01-31.
03:50:32jinn6 (jinn6) joins
04:03:30nine quits [Quit: See ya!]
04:03:43nine joins
04:03:43nine quits [Changing host]
04:03:43nine (nine) joins
04:06:49Island quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:07:26beardicus1 (beardicus) joins
04:09:51beardicus quits [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
04:09:51beardicus1 is now known as beardicus
04:16:36<h2ibot>PaulWise edited Finding subdomains (+97, status page strategy): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=60109&oldid=58320
04:23:27Hackerpcs (Hackerpcs) joins
04:36:04DogsRNice quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:36:51khaoohs quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:13:40<pabs>KerwoodDerby6: I note that the piano rolls site has an open directory, so looks like we can save everything including non-PD stuff https://www.pianorollmusic.org/html
05:13:52<pabs>https://www.pianorollmusic.org/html/tsmythe/midifiles/NonPDfiles/
05:14:16beastbg8 quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:16:24<pabs>KerwoodDerby6: should I just start an ArchiveBot job for https://www.pianorollmusic.org/html? /cc nicolas17 JAA ats pokechu22
05:17:03beastbg8 (beastbg8) joins
05:17:35<nicolas17>that would get all the raw data yeah, but not the listings
05:18:11<nicolas17>to get the lists, as I said, we'd need to make a list of all the pages because AB can't crawl that
05:18:42<nicolas17>(and exclude /html to avoid duplication with your job now :p)
05:19:00<pabs>it will get / and then /rolldatabase.php, where are the listings?
05:20:00<pabs>another open dir is https://www.pianorollmusic.org/design/
05:20:29<pabs>so probably want to do the sitemap trick I guess
05:21:13<pabs>oh, I see https://www.pianorollmusic.org/rolldatabase.php?showpage=26&sortby=catalog
05:21:24<nicolas17>pabs: I mean rolldatabase.php, the pagination uses a <form> so AB won't crawl it
05:21:24<pabs>hmm I thought AB could find those
05:21:35<nicolas17>well
05:21:47<nicolas17>it's not an <a href="?page=2">Next</a> so I *assumed* it won't crawl
05:21:59<nicolas17>if AB is smart enough to parse forms then all the better
05:23:51<pokechu22>It parses <form action=/rolldatabase.php> to https://www.pianorollmusic.org/rolldatabase.php but it won't fill in the rest
05:26:19<pokechu22>https://transfer.archivete.am/inline/PdSFb/www.cagematch.net_seed_urls.txt might be suitable for inspiration (though that site was a bit more complicated)
05:26:22<pabs>ok, sitemap trick then
05:27:01<pabs>ah no, not needed since everything is at the top level
05:27:40<pokechu22>(and that site actually *does* use href for pagination, but not for selecting months/years; I listed all pages mainly so that it would get information about everything at the same depth)
05:28:21cyanbox_ quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:28:34<nicolas17>pabs: https://transfer.archivete.am/inline/BYwFH/pianoroll-rolldatabase.txt
05:32:24cyanbox joins
05:33:03Guest58 joins
05:33:58<pabs>nicolas17++
05:33:59<eggdrop>[karma] 'nicolas17' now has 24 karma!
05:34:06<pabs>will run https://transfer.archivete.am/VYr9M/www.pianorollmusic.org-open-dirs-and-rolldatabase.php-all-pages.txt
05:34:06<eggdrop>inline (for browser viewing): https://transfer.archivete.am/inline/VYr9M/www.pianorollmusic.org-open-dirs-and-rolldatabase.php-all-pages.txt
05:36:19<nicolas17>I think everything else is reachable from /
05:36:28<nicolas17>so that's good
05:37:18<pabs>KerwoodDerby6: going to run https://www.mmdigest.com/ too
05:39:06<@arkiver>justauser: yes on blogs.sapo.pt. that will run a bit closer to the deadline, not yet now
05:39:15<pabs>I couldn't find any other open dirs on pianorollmusic.org btw
05:39:59<@arkiver>https://icosa.gallery/ is nice
05:41:03<@arkiver>so tenor shutdown is not official right?
05:41:08<@arkiver>oh
05:41:32<@arkiver>nvm
05:41:44<nicolas17>arkiver: API shutdown is official, "if they kill the API I bet they'll kill the entire website by next year" is speculation based on Google's track record
05:44:35<pabs>KerwoodDerby6: also https://www.spencerserolls.com/ https://jeffbourdier.github.io/
05:44:43<@arkiver>time for tenor
05:44:47<@arkiver>thanks nicolas17
05:44:51<@arkiver>any ideas for a channel name?
05:45:05<nicolas17>also using the API will be tricky
05:45:17<Hans5958>end of tenure idk
05:45:25<@arkiver>deadline june 30
05:45:33<nicolas17>afaik the API will work until June 30, but you can no longer get new API keys
05:45:45<@arkiver>would someone be able to add that to the deathwatch page?
05:45:55<nicolas17>so where will we find an API key we can abuse
05:46:16<@arkiver>i was thinking more about backing up the entirety of tenor with June 30 as deadline
05:46:25<nicolas17>via website?
05:46:32<@arkiver>yes and API as much as possible
05:46:44<@arkiver>need to look into how tenor is used in other services, if it uses API, etc.
05:46:50<@arkiver>we'd archive the public facing part
05:49:20<nicolas17>hmm... new game launched today https://hytale.com/, a friend was looking to archive every build to avoid what happened with minecraft, where an early build was lost media until someone randomly found it in an old PC backup
05:51:23<nicolas17>there's currently 2 builds but idk how often they'll be patching it
05:52:28<nicolas17>and it's already 1.5GiB x {v1,v2} x {windows,linux,mac} x {release,pre-release} = 18GiB... this could grow fast :p
05:54:23michaelblob quits [Quit: yoop]
05:55:05michaelblob joins
06:00:03<pabs>KerwoodDerby6: btw, the AB job for www.pianorollmusic.org is getting some 404s on .mid files, I think there are some typoed links. we will get the real files though
06:05:07sg72 quits [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
06:07:15sg72 joins
06:08:50<h2ibot>PaulWise edited Category:Software archiving (+60, add Software Preservation Society): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=60110&oldid=58332
06:18:13nexussfan quits [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
06:53:07<pabs>JAA: canonical.com pinged me again, could you send them the relevant AB/etc IP addresses?
06:57:16<pabs>forwarded the mail to AT
06:58:18<@JAA>pabs: Oops, right, ack
07:03:23midou quits [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
07:20:29Chris5010 quits [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
07:35:34Chris5010 (Chris5010) joins
07:37:03midou joins
07:39:28mrminemeet joins
07:40:26mrminemeet_ quits [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
07:42:01midou quits [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
07:44:55benjins3 quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:58:16midou joins
08:13:02<h|ca2>nicolas17: can you deduplicate builds somehow?
08:37:32midou quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:47:14midou joins
08:51:16ducky_ (ducky) joins
08:54:06ducky quits [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
08:54:06ducky_ is now known as ducky
09:00:21linuxgemini quits [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)]
09:00:34linuxgemini (linuxgemini) joins
09:11:30Lord_Nightmare quits [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in]
09:12:15Webuser899855 joins
09:12:28Webuser899855 quits [Client Quit]
09:26:24Shard1 quits [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
09:30:15Webuser659585 joins
09:31:58Webuser659585 quits [Client Quit]
09:33:12Webuser000000001 joins
09:34:43Webuser000000001 quits [Client Quit]
09:34:54nathang2184 quits [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
09:34:54Webuser288239 joins
09:35:23<Webuser288239>Hello. A famous Japanese Pokémon BBS will be shutting down tomorrow (2026/15/01 JST). Can anyone help?
09:35:23<Webuser288239>https://pokemonbbs.com/post/
09:36:12Webuser288239 leaves
09:44:23nathang2184 joins
09:55:21chunkynutz60 quits [Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat]
10:01:21midou quits [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
10:02:01MrMcNuggets (MrMcNuggets) joins
10:19:35cyanbox quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:22:32cyanbox joins