| 01:52:06 | | programmerq (programmerq) joins |
| 02:25:04 | | TheTechRobo (TheTechRobo) joins |
| 02:25:45 | | fishingforsoup__ joins |
| 02:29:05 | | fishingforsoup quits [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] |
| 02:29:55 | | fishingforsoup joins |
| 02:30:02 | | fishingforsoup_ quits [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] |
| 02:30:54 | | fishingforsoup_ joins |
| 02:33:02 | | fishingforsoup__ quits [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] |
| 04:22:46 | <pcr> | schwarzkatz|m: if you have XMPP you can access Hackint from there, that bridge has never had problems in my experience |
| 04:31:58 | | HP_Archivist (HP_Archivist) joins |
| 04:46:15 | | michaelblob quits [Client Quit] |
| 04:48:07 | | BlueMaxima quits [Client Quit] |
| 04:48:17 | | fishingforsoup__ joins |
| 04:52:08 | | fishingforsoup_ quits [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] |
| 04:52:08 | | fishingforsoup quits [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] |
| 04:53:26 | | fishingforsoup__ quits [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] |
| 05:22:37 | | test joins |
| 05:23:14 | | test quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 05:43:15 | | eroc1990 quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 05:43:40 | | eroc1990 (eroc1990) joins |
| 06:01:34 | <madpro|m> | I will have to disagree and say that Matrix > IRC > XMPP |
| 06:01:50 | <madpro|m> | IF you can operate bridges |
| 06:03:07 | <madpro|m> | Matrix' biggest appeal right now is interoperability, because it can cross-connect to so many ecosystems which are otherwise isolated https://matrix.org/bridges/ |
| 06:03:38 | | hackbug quits [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] |
| 06:03:41 | | pabs prefers interop to be in the client instead |
| 06:03:43 | <madpro|m> | Perhaps if we were in a different time where AT prioritised jobs over self-preservation, things may have gone differently. :) |
| 06:03:48 | <madpro|m> | The road not taken... |
| 06:09:04 | <madpro|m> | pabs: P2P is dead and we have killed it |
| 06:10:53 | <pabs> | ew |
| 06:11:01 | <madpro|m> | That's the main source of preference of XMPP over Matrix if I recall correctly. |
| 06:11:28 | <madpro|m> | But devices are simply not designed for this nowadays, do you have any idea how many people only use a low-end smartphone? |
| 06:15:50 | <pabs> | my preference is basically the opposite to you these days; IRC > XMPP > Matrix |
| 06:16:36 | <madpro|m> | We do somehow agree that IRC > XMPP, at least :) |
| 06:24:13 | <pabs> | mhmm. mostly because XMPP /msg spam is rediculous these days. the only spam IRC gets is from the Matrix bridges though |
| 06:24:37 | <madpro|m> | Well the only spam I have gotten on Matrix are XMPP fanboy raids |
| 06:24:53 | <madpro|m> | Perhaps the MAD has already begun :) |
| 06:25:08 | <madpro|m> | * mostly XMPP fanboy raids |
| 06:25:53 | <madpro|m> | All the inter-bridging also means a few cryptobros and alt-right trolls seep through as well. |
| 06:28:03 | <h2ibot> | Themadprogramer edited Discourse (+53, /* Notable Discourses */ added Wick Editor Forums): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49270&oldid=49129 |
| 06:29:03 | <h2ibot> | Themadprogramer edited Discourse (+43, /* Active Discourses */ added Ruby-Forum): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49271&oldid=49270 |
| 06:32:18 | | Island quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 06:35:25 | <@JAA> | From a protocol perspective, IRC wins in my eyes. It's a very simple protocol that's easy to implement for anyone who's written code before (well, once you get past the hurdle of realising that the RFCs are useless and you need to look at other documents). XMPP is disqualified from competition due to using XML. And Matrix is ... special, based on what I've seen. |
| 06:39:03 | <@JAA> | Bridges are great. If they work, that is, which they rarely do reliably for long periods of time, and often enough they end up not properly mapping functions between the technologies but only supporting a minimal common subset. I will concede that this Matrix bridge has been one of the better experiences. Disconnects due to maintenance and that recent matrix.org bug aside, it's been pretty smooth. |
| 06:39:09 | <@JAA> | Although it immediately breaks down when people need to do IRC management stuff (like setting up channels, kicking/banning, etc.), because from what I've been told, that's poorly supported. |
| 06:39:24 | <madpro|m> | It took me a good 2 years knowing about Matrix before actually downloading an client for it and another 1.5 years before I started my first home server. |
| 06:39:46 | <pabs> | yeah the IRC <> Matrix bridge bugs and cultural differences are pretty jarring on the IRC side |
| 06:39:51 | <madpro|m> | I would say Matrix' weakest point is that it came out in a post-FSM era. |
| 06:39:58 | <pabs> | FSM? |
| 06:40:16 | <madpro|m> | Free Software Movement? |
| 06:40:31 | <madpro|m> | Wait |
| 06:40:32 | <madpro|m> | * OSM |
| 06:40:33 | <madpro|m> | lol |
| 06:40:44 | <madpro|m> | * double-cheks |
| 06:40:54 | <@JAA> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_movement |
| 06:41:07 | <madpro|m> | ok, but names are in use to refer to interrelated things lol. |
| 06:41:29 | <@JAA> | But eh, that dates back to the early GNU days etc. |
| 06:41:54 | | pabs fails to parse, OSM would be OpenStreetMap, FSM I've never seen as an abbreviation of free software movement (never really see the "movement" word associated with it) |
| 06:41:56 | <@JAA> | IRC is an open protocol, there have been open-source ircd and client implementations since the early days. |
| 06:42:44 | <@JAA> | And there have been countless open chat protocols and softwares inbetween as well. |
| 06:43:06 | <madpro|m> | Matrix, on the other hand, started as another chat competitor around 2015. THEN they made a sudden decision to go open-source (a la MediaWiki) |
| 06:43:08 | <pabs> | "open source" meaning libre software is less of a thing these days too, I often see people equating open source with public git repos, regardless of the license |
| 06:43:16 | <@JAA> | E2EE wasn't common previously, but the way Matrix does that is insane from what I've read. |
| 06:43:56 | <madpro|m> | So matrix has a comparatively very different primordial culture. You won't ever see Mozilla folks or IRC users on most rooms. |
| 06:44:18 | <madpro|m> | From what I have seen, perhaps the biggest intersection is the Linux Arch community. |
| 06:44:22 | <@JAA> | I mean, Mozilla shut down their IRC server in favour of Matrix. :-P |
| 06:44:36 | <madpro|m> | But that has less to do with some nascent overlap and more to do with the sheer popularity of Arch. |
| 06:46:01 | <madpro|m> | Is moderation broken? Not as much as the XMPP folks would want to have you believe. |
| 06:47:07 | <madpro|m> | "dedicated" matrix development is right now focussed more on server implementations rather than clients: Element (Python codebase), Dendrite (Go) and Conduit (Rust) |
| 06:47:09 | <@JAA> | I don't have any first-hand experience with either bridge. It's just what I've heard from others when they asked me to do it instead. May well be cases of PEBKAC. |
| 06:47:40 | <madpro|m> | Element has great moderation coverage; it's Dendrite and Conduit which are a bit behind |
| 06:47:48 | <@JAA> | Element is a client though, isn't it? Synapse is the server. |
| 06:48:07 | <madpro|m> | At some point both of those projects were enforcing a "Closed Registration" default, at which point it did essentially become P2P |
| 06:48:30 | <@JAA> | To be clear, I'm talking about bridging mod stuff here. So that a Matrix user can apply an IRC ban, for example. |
| 06:48:36 | <madpro|m> | And that was the only serious moderation tool you had to work with without extensions like Mjolnir or whatever |
| 06:48:54 | <@JAA> | So that'd be the bridge's job, not the Matrix server. |
| 06:49:14 | <madpro|m> | It has, definitely, hurt the growth of Matrix very significantly. Because XMPP folks are right about the point of building a supermassive server only for it to be a worse P2P be bloated. |
| 06:49:45 | <madpro|m> | * Synapse is the server, correct |
| 06:50:35 | <madpro|m> | Bridge-Modding is mostly done through that plugin I mentioned, Mjolnir https://github.com/matrix-org/mjolnir |
| 06:51:05 | <madpro|m> | It's good for banning rapidly. But if it's not fast enough I have seen people cut the bridge entirely. |
| 06:51:34 | <madpro|m> | That's what happened on the Asahi server where a group of (most likely) channers thought it would be "fun" to start spamming racial slurs |
| 06:51:40 | <madpro|m> | * room |
| 06:51:43 | <madpro|m> | * channel |
| 06:51:54 | <madpro|m> | It's a matter of perspective really 😝 |
| 06:52:03 | <@JAA> | It's weird seeing 'ban' and 'rapidly' in the same sentence, implying that it might be slow. On IRC, I send a single line to the ircd, and the ban is active. :-) |
| 06:52:20 | <madpro|m> | That is what Mjolnir does |
| 06:52:35 | <madpro|m> | The problem is that attackers are too offensive |
| 06:52:59 | <madpro|m> | You can very easily scrape all public matrix rooms in a matter of seconds, |
| 06:53:08 | <@JAA> | Well, we can literally lock down all AT channels in a single message to the hackint ircd. |
| 06:53:18 | <madpro|m> | all it takes is somewhere in the chain to find a server with open-registrations or to set up a malicious instance yourself |
| 06:53:34 | <madpro|m> | and you can just churn out more users across several rooms at a time |
| 06:53:56 | <madpro|m> | And likewise, you can close registrations. That is literally what people are doing and it works the same way as IRC |
| 06:54:19 | <madpro|m> | The one difference being is that the XMPP raids are launched specifically to close off the Matrix system off even more. |
| 06:54:33 | <@JAA> | Eh, IRC doesn't really have registrations in that sense. NickServ exists, yes, but that's not really comparable. You can connect to most IRC networks without any prior registration etc. |
| 06:54:38 | <madpro|m> | And as IRC folks retract their bridges and Matrix servers become even more echo-chambers, they are able to achieve that goal |
| 06:55:23 | <madpro|m> | Matrix splits user registration and identity (NickServ style) |
| 06:56:19 | <madpro|m> | Hence why we can have both a JAA:hackint.org and JAA:matrix.org . More namespaces! |
| 06:56:30 | <@JAA> | My point is that with Matrix, you first need an account on some homeserver to be able to do *anything*. |
| 06:56:58 | <@JAA> | Well, and on IRC we have JAA on hackint and JAA on Libera. They're just not linked in any way. |
| 06:56:59 | <madpro|m> | Do you recall what I said earlier about the focus on native servers? |
| 06:57:07 | <madpro|m> | There used to be a Guest user function a very long time ago |
| 06:57:16 | <madpro|m> | IIRC |
| 06:58:01 | <@JAA> | I'm guessing it was abused heavily? |
| 06:58:04 | <madpro|m> | But that has been neglected because people just assume sign-up is better against spammers. It also gives a good excuse to insert a CAPTCHA |
| 06:58:21 | <@JAA> | Right |
| 06:58:56 | <@JAA> | I guess it is better, but it also deters people who just want to send a message to someone, like random people appearing here to tell us about an upcoming shutdown, disappearing immediately never to be seen again. |
| 06:59:37 | <@JAA> | That needs to be as low a barrier as possible. IRC webchat isn't perfect but pretty close I'd say. |
| 07:00:06 | <Maakuth|m> | to be fair, web portals to specific rooms are very possible with matrix, similar to irc webchat |
| 07:00:08 | <@JAA> | (Certainly better than a random Matrix user appearing and then not seeing our replies due to a bridge malfunction... ;-) |
| 07:01:04 | <madpro|m> | (̿▀̿ ̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿)̄ I am helping |
| 07:01:07 | | madpro|m leaves |
| 07:01:12 | <madpro|m> | jk lol |
| 07:01:40 | <Maakuth|m> | https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web this is a client suitable for that |
| 07:01:49 | <@JAA> | Good to know, thanks. |
| 07:02:08 | <madpro|m> | Oh sweet, SSO |
| 07:02:23 | <madpro|m> | That is a step in the right direction, for sure |
| 07:03:00 | | sonick quits [Client Quit] |
| 07:06:05 | | madpro|m rereads specifications |
| 07:07:42 | <madpro|m> | Another design choice of matrix is that one of the benefits of server-centric federation (over P2P) is that image-hosting becomes a possibility (unlike IRC) |
| 07:08:40 | <madpro|m> | Audio to really, so media hosting. |
| 07:08:44 | <madpro|m> | *too |
| 07:10:22 | <madpro|m> | That is probably something that makes Matrix a lot more modern than IRC/XMPP where linking and limited file-sharing are preferred. |
| 07:10:39 | <@JAA> | Speaking of IRC channel moderation, I'm going to close those channels now where I announced it last week. |
| 07:10:51 | <madpro|m> | Oh? |
| 07:10:53 | <@JAA> | Yeah, that's definitely an advantage. |
| 07:11:13 | <@JAA> | Just old project channels that haven't seen messages in many months and won't be needed anymore. |
| 07:12:29 | <madpro|m> | Yeah, don't tell me about it. I'm notorious for squatting dead channels ʘ‿ʘ |
| 07:12:53 | <madpro|m> | If you have ever been on rizon.net lol |
| 07:12:59 | <@JAA> | Tell me about it. I have 291 windows open in irssi. |
| 07:14:26 | <madpro|m> | I mean, it's a very humble collection |
| 07:14:29 | | madpro|m uploaded an image: (38KiB) < https://matrix.hackint.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/madpro.world/fcdb6505d8121dba3648a4fad1cbc35273cace3fe7a33445dff5f3206f237212/image.png > |
| 07:14:44 | <madpro|m> | Some time ago I was looking for subtitle-groups |
| 07:15:05 | <madpro|m> | Don't think most would remember it, but this was in the aftermath of the YouTube community contributions shutdown. |
| 07:15:18 | | thuban quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 07:15:29 | <madpro|m> | And a funny thing I began doing was searching up old AMVs and fansubbed anime on YouTube |
| 07:15:42 | <madpro|m> | and then joining their IRC rooms (typically on Rizon in that era) |
| 07:15:54 | <madpro|m> | To see if anyone was still there. |
| 07:16:09 | <madpro|m> | Otherwise I just ended up being the new sole resident of the room, hehe |
| 07:16:47 | <madpro|m> | There are def people who check their old rooms once every 6 months, so that much to see was cute. |
| 07:17:25 | <madpro|m> | Some of the more mature groups still primarily communicate on IRC, even though Discord has become the de facto standard for this generation |
| 07:18:03 | | hitgrr8 joins |
| 07:18:46 | <madpro|m> | > YouTube community contributions shutdown |
| 07:18:46 | <madpro|m> | Oh wow, AT wiki doesn't even have it on the https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php/YouTube page |
| 07:19:21 | <madpro|m> | This is the one, from tech and my blog: https://datahorde.org/youtube-community-contributions-archive-now-available-a-look-at-the-stats/ |
| 07:26:06 | | sonick (sonick) joins |
| 07:29:07 | | sec^nd quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 07:29:37 | | sec^nd (second) joins |
| 07:31:13 | <Jake> | (double checking with these channel closings, are we updating any associated wiki pages?) |
| 07:37:15 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist edited Fast.io (+23): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49272&oldid=47850 |
| 07:37:16 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist edited Google Poly (+23): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49273&oldid=47719 |
| 07:38:15 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist edited Endomondo (+23): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49274&oldid=47843 |
| 07:38:16 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist edited .eu domains (+23): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49275&oldid=47738 |
| 07:38:17 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist edited Voat (+23): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49276&oldid=47587 |
| 07:38:18 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist edited Halo (+23): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49277&oldid=47915 |
| 07:39:15 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist edited So-net U-Page+ (+23): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49278&oldid=47742 |
| 07:39:16 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist edited CodePlex (+23): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49279&oldid=47783 |
| 07:39:17 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist edited Ge.tt (+23): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49280&oldid=47883 |
| 07:39:18 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist edited Bintray (+23): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49281&oldid=48842 |
| 07:39:19 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist edited LiveLeak (+23): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49282&oldid=47955 |
| 07:39:52 | <@JAA> | (Yes) |
| 07:40:16 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist edited Radikal (+23): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49283&oldid=48725 |
| 07:41:05 | <@JAA> | Apparently, no pages exist for GREE or pinger.pl. |
| 07:41:52 | <Jake> | ty! :) |
| 07:49:17 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist created GREE (+596, Minimal page for completed project): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?title=GREE |
| 07:52:18 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist created Pinger (+450, Minimal page for completed project): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?title=Pinger |
| 07:52:19 | <h2ibot> | JustAnotherArchivist edited Deathwatch (-46, Links to GREE and Pinger pages): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=49286&oldid=49262 |
| 08:08:27 | | MrRadar_ (MrRadar) joins |
| 08:10:18 | | MrRadar quits [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] |
| 08:33:17 | <@JAA> | Did we grab https://forum.tek.com/ yet? |
| 08:33:24 | <@JAA> | Jake: You mentioned in October that it's hard to crawl? |
| 08:33:56 | <@JAA> | And then that you have 'a additional things to try', but I can't find anything after that. |
| 08:34:17 | <Jake> | Yup, constantly got the Cloudflare check page. I have a couple of additional ideas that I can try tonight or tomorrow. Will keep you updated. |
| 08:34:41 | <@JAA> | Ah |
| 08:34:44 | <@JAA> | Thanks |
| 08:47:35 | <Jake> | (Actually, I just kicked it off. Looks like all 200s right now. Will keep monitoring.) |
| 10:14:30 | | sonick quits [Client Quit] |
| 10:19:14 | | lukash799 quits [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] |
| 10:40:14 | | Minkafighter7 quits [Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat] |
| 10:40:50 | | Minkafighter7 joins |
| 10:57:38 | | tzt quits [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] |
| 11:20:44 | | Ketchup901 quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 11:21:18 | | Ketchup901 (Ketchup901) joins |
| 11:22:02 | | hitgrr8 quits [Client Quit] |
| 11:33:01 | | Minkafighter7 quits [Client Quit] |
| 11:34:05 | | Minkafighter7 joins |
| 12:17:58 | | godane (godane) joins |
| 12:19:42 | | godane2 quits [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] |
| 12:57:31 | | hackbug (hackbug) joins |
| 13:06:21 | | jacksonchen666 quits [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] |
| 13:07:14 | | systwi quits [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] |
| 13:08:40 | | jacksonchen666 (jacksonchen666) joins |
| 13:09:14 | | HackMii quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 13:09:31 | | HackMii (hacktheplanet) joins |
| 13:10:06 | | Wingy6 (Wingy) joins |
| 13:10:24 | | luna joins |
| 13:10:56 | | Wingy quits [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] |
| 13:10:56 | | Wingy6 is now known as Wingy |
| 13:15:13 | | godane1 joins |
| 13:17:26 | | godane quits [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] |
| 13:18:02 | | Arcorann_ quits [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] |
| 13:22:52 | | Megame (Megame) joins |
| 13:26:36 | | systwi (systwi) joins |
| 14:05:34 | | treora quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 14:05:35 | | treora joins |
| 14:38:42 | | sonick (sonick) joins |
| 14:55:44 | | immibis quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 14:58:15 | | immibis (immibis) joins |
| 14:59:59 | | Megame quits [Client Quit] |
| 15:48:37 | | Quiesel joins |
| 15:55:10 | | HP_Archivist quits [Client Quit] |
| 16:25:18 | | Quiesel25 joins |
| 16:27:38 | | Ketchup901 quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 16:27:49 | | Ketchup901 (Ketchup901) joins |
| 16:28:08 | | Quiesel quits [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] |
| 16:44:55 | | Island joins |
| 17:34:59 | | Quiesel25 quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 18:04:41 | | jacksonchen666 quits [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] |
| 18:06:58 | | jacksonchen666 (jacksonchen666) joins |
| 18:08:50 | | qwertyasdfuiopghjkl quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 18:47:49 | | Jonimus quits [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] |
| 18:49:15 | | Jonimus joins |
| 18:57:52 | <Ryz> | Well, this is interesting, a couple of days ago it seems that Twitter has now started showing Twitter post views per entry... inb4 we start rearchiving every single Twitter post with that info? |
| 18:58:29 | <@JAA> | I wonder whether there's a search filter for that yet. |
| 18:59:52 | <@JAA> | I bet it'd be called min_views, so the answer is most likely no. |
| 19:02:55 | <@JAA> | Also, it seems they only count (or show?) views since about 2022-12-15. Older tweets are all at zero. |
| 19:04:53 | | Jonimus quits [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] |
| 19:05:01 | <@JAA> | It's also inconsistent, sometimes one page shows the number while another doesn't for the same tweet. Typical. |
| 19:12:36 | | sec^nd quits [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] |
| 19:14:02 | | sec^nd (second) joins |
| 20:05:49 | | Czechball quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 20:18:02 | | Lord_Nightmare quits [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] |
| 20:43:49 | | lunik17 quits [Client Quit] |
| 20:48:08 | | lunik17 joins |
| 21:29:37 | | Stiletto quits [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] |
| 21:35:44 | | LeGoupil joins |
| 21:38:49 | | Lord_Nightmare (Lord_Nightmare) joins |
| 21:40:36 | | tzt (tzt) joins |
| 21:46:27 | | michaelblob (michaelblob) joins |
| 21:47:36 | | AlsoTheTechRobo joins |
| 21:48:06 | | AlsoTheTechRobo quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 21:51:02 | | LeGoupil quits [Client Quit] |
| 22:23:22 | | treora quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 22:23:23 | | treora joins |
| 22:25:51 | | TheTechRobo quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 22:26:26 | | TheTechRobo (TheTechRobo) joins |
| 22:39:38 | | Wingy quits [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] |
| 23:02:35 | | Wingy (Wingy) joins |
| 23:04:31 | | godane1 quits [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] |
| 23:08:54 | | Jonimus joins |
| 23:10:12 | | Arcorann_ joins |
| 23:46:05 | | treora quits [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 23:46:07 | | treora joins |
| 23:56:57 | | michaelblob quits [Client Quit] |