| 00:20:24 | <thuban> | ah yeah, i heard something about it being moved to the same servers as the sister site fictionpress |
| 00:23:00 | <thuban> | man, it looks like https://github.com/ArchiveTeam/ffnet-grab wasn't even warrior-based? |
| 00:24:12 | <Doranwen> | Fanfiction.net is a massive bit of history for fandom, so that's a huge priority for us |
| 00:28:05 | <thuban> | looks like there's never been a scrape of the forums, either |
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| 00:43:28 | <@OrIdow6> | This does sound to me like another panic-site-is-shutting-down-over-a-single-social-media-post |
| 00:44:17 | <thuban> | not really |
| 00:44:28 | <@OrIdow6> | Obviously from how it's going, it seems less than likely it'll last another year or so, but AFAICT the thing in the last ~2 days does not reflect a days-left state before shutdown? |
| 00:45:55 | <thuban> | the thing is that most people have _already_ fled ffn, because it's done multiple rounds of purges in the past and it's no longer trusted in fandom circles--that post isn't so much a news announcement as a psa that gets repeated occasionally |
| 00:46:04 | <Doranwen> | no, I don't think it's imminent - but it's not looking *great*, and fandom would not like to take *any* chances |
| 00:46:05 | | Doranwen nods |
| 00:46:42 | <thuban> | anyway: sequential user and story ids, max ~15m (!) and ~14m respectively, can be accessed without slugs (not a redirect, just same page content). forums are user-created and do seem to require slugs; topics don't require slugs but do include the forum id in the url and appear to use a single counter across all forums, so both would probably have to be enumerated through the |
| 00:46:45 | <thuban> | pagination |
| 00:46:46 | <Doranwen> | there's still a lot of very good stuff on there - and the reviews are very valuable too |
| 00:51:42 | <thuban> | "communities" are just user-curated story collections; there's a separate beta-reader profile system that isn't linked from the main user profiles (not all users are "registered beta readers") but uses the same ids. i think that's about it |
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| 01:13:41 | <cm> | I know this isn't archive.org, but does anyone know how to determine the size of a page that is saved on the wayback machine? |
| 01:14:25 | <Doranwen> | this is more the channel for questions like that, though I can't answer it, hopefully someone can! |
| 01:14:41 | <cm> | with a live web page you can look at the bandwidth usage in firefox dev tools, but on the wayback machine you also pick up stuff from archive.org |
| 01:16:30 | <@JAA> | cm: Define 'size'? Byte size of the original HTML? Total size with images etc.? Something else? |
| 01:18:13 | <cm> | JAA: the bandwidth it takes to load the page completely |
| 01:20:21 | <@JAA> | In the WBM? Then you need to include the WBM's own things. And it rewrites links and references as well, which will also change the size. |
| 01:20:48 | <@JAA> | What are you trying to do? |
| 01:21:19 | <cm> | compare an updated site to an older version of the same site |
| 01:21:56 | <@JAA> | If it's just about the difference, including the WBM's scripts etc. shouldn't matter. |
| 01:22:13 | <@JAA> | Since they'll be included in both. |
| 01:25:09 | <cm> | ah yeah I can just use the wayback machine version of both |
| 01:25:16 | <cm> | good idea |
| 01:26:29 | <cm> | ah that doesn't work though, since the wayback machine is now IP blocked by the site I want to measure :( |
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| 02:58:45 | <@JAA> | hook54321: https://lists.mozilla.org/ was discontinued last month, apparently. Found that while looking into news.mozilla.org. :-| |
| 02:59:14 | <@hook54321> | i thought we got that one |
| 02:59:18 | <@JAA> | At least all the content's still there it seems. |
| 02:59:19 | <@JAA> | Did we? |
| 02:59:35 | <@JAA> | Grepping my logs only yielded an AB job from 2017. |
| 02:59:54 | <@hook54321> | ah |
| 03:00:00 | <@hook54321> | must be that i'm thinking of |
| 03:00:05 | <webdownload> | Why would Mozilla do such a thing? |
| 03:00:39 | <@JAA> | They've been doing this for at least a couple years now. |
| 03:01:17 | <webdownload> | They don't seem like the type. |
| 03:01:45 | <@JAA> | Inb4 Google Groups shuts down and they move back to their own infra. |
| 03:02:26 | <@JAA> | This is where I found out about it, by the way: https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.freeware/c/FWKDhmVClv0 |
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| 04:12:29 | <Doranwen> | thuban: also a note - the default index pages for each category exclude the M-rated fics |
| 04:12:34 | <Doranwen> | for fanfiction.net |
| 04:12:50 | <Doranwen> | one has to change that setting to see all of them |
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| 04:13:32 | <Doranwen> | it's a simple string that is added to the URL, so that's not hard to apply, but it's a consideration, because it'd be easy to just go through the default ones and miss those in the index pages |
| 04:15:01 | <@JAA> | But those stories themselves are accessible normally, right? It's just excluded from the lists? |
| 04:15:01 | <thuban> | not relevant for enumeration over fic ids |
| 04:15:15 | <thuban> | yeah |
| 04:16:43 | <thuban> | do we usually get that sort of pagination data? |
| 04:16:47 | <@JAA> | Does something similar exist in the forums, where we can't just enumerate topics? |
| 04:17:57 | <@JAA> | Usually not, no. It'd be nice to preserve the entire website 'experience', but it's not easily possible often, and the unique content is way more important obviously. |
| 04:18:14 | <Doranwen> | yeah, it's only really a consideration for the WBM, I think |
| 04:20:17 | <thuban> | ^^ site policy is "All forum posts must be suitable for teens", and topics don't have ratings, so i presume not |
| 04:20:21 | <Doranwen> | that's what I saw on a Reddit thread discussing whether this latest round of paranoia has any substance - and the general consensus was something like "ff.n has been dying for ages, it's not imminent at all but eventually it may go", but there was one fandom user (who, incidentally, helped us with the Yahoo Groups project) that was really bothered that the WBM never got those fics in the index pages |
| 04:21:35 | <@JAA> | The index can always be rebuilt from the stories anyway. |
| 04:21:59 | <@JAA> | Pagination is particularly horrible to properly archive on websites that are still live. |
| 04:22:14 | <thuban> | yeah, was thinking that myself |
| 04:22:28 | <@JAA> | You virtually always end up with an incomplete list because things get shifted around while you're iterating through the pages. |
| 04:22:44 | <@JAA> | So some stories would appear twice and others would be missing. |
| 04:24:03 | <Doranwen> | yeah, if there was a way to reverse the order so the oldest appeared first, one *can* set it to sort by publish date instead of update date - but any new story posted will throw it off |
| 04:24:12 | <Doranwen> | AO3 is nicer in that you *can* set that |
| 04:24:44 | <@JAA> | Stories sometimes get deleted, and then it'll shift everything anyway. |
| 04:25:05 | <Doranwen> | oof, yeah |
| 04:25:08 | <@JAA> | Offset-based pagination always has that problem. |
| 04:25:45 | <@JAA> | You need cursor-based pagination instead, but that's messier to implement, so many smaller sites don't use it. |
| 04:26:35 | <@JAA> | What you do is grab all the stories and then generate an independent index from that. |
| 04:27:22 | <@JAA> | Anyway, the primary concern is making sure that the unique data, i.e. the actual stories, are safe. |
| 04:27:36 | <thuban> | yeah. (i don't think ffn will show you the exact timestamp, unfortunately) |
| 04:28:38 | <@JAA> | It doesn't display it, but it's in the HTML in a data-xutime attribute. |
| 04:28:50 | <thuban> | oh! i should have checked |
| 04:30:44 | <@JAA> | What is the URL tweak needed for the M-rated stories in lists? |
| 04:32:20 | <thuban> | it's the 'r' parameter |
| 04:32:21 | <@JAA> | Ah, found it in the filters. r=10 param |
| 04:32:31 | <thuban> | if you click the "Filters"--yeah |
| 04:33:43 | <@JAA> | Looks like https://www.fanfiction.net/j/0/0/0/ always includes them. That's good. |
| 04:33:58 | <@JAA> | Thinking about how to continuously cover the site until it inevitably dies. |
| 04:38:52 | <@JAA> | Hmm, shouldn't all entries on https://www.fanfiction.net/j/0/2/0/ ('Updated Stories') also be in https://www.fanfiction.net/j/0/0/0/ ('All Types')? |
| 04:39:52 | <thuban> | i think "Updated Stories" excludes newly published one-shots |
| 04:41:01 | <thuban> | wait, no it doesn't. |
| 04:41:25 | <@JAA> | Hmm, I'm sensing some caching bugs there. |
| 04:42:14 | <@JAA> | But I suppose the best strategy would be to retrieve all five of the 'Just In' pages regularly to collect story IDs that need to be regrabbed. |
| 04:45:40 | <thuban> | the first entry in "Updated Stories" as i'm looking at it right now says "Updated: Oct 17, 2020" but actually clicking on the fic shows "5m ago" |
| 04:45:46 | <thuban> | caching bugs indeed :) |
| 04:49:18 | <@JAA> | Yeah |
| 04:49:52 | <@JAA> | But there's a 'Ghost of Love (Reylo Fanfic)' on Updated now that doesn't appear on All while the two around it do. |
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| 04:51:36 | <thuban> | there are also rss feeds, but i think they're only per-category and they appear to be equally flaky |
| 04:52:46 | <Doranwen> | yeah, you can customize them quite a bit, I think |
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| 04:53:03 | <Doranwen> | like, I think they generate a feed based on whatever filter you have set to browse with |
| 04:56:00 | <nerdguy1138> | JAA: i'm actually working on this! i can send you a list of inprogress fics |
| 04:56:31 | <nerdguy1138> | ive been archiving fics for years now |
| 05:04:12 | <nerdguy1138> | fanfiction.net has really been amping up the cloudflare blocking recently. ive moved on to AO3, wattpad, and quotev. |
| 05:12:04 | <@JAA> | That's disappointing. What kind of rate limit are we looking at there? |
| 05:15:49 | <nerdguy1138> | somewhere between 5-10 seconds, the sript i was using just completely gave up, and honestly if they want to consign themselves to the dustbin of history that badly , i'm inclined to let them. i already have millions of stories from there. |
| 05:16:05 | <nerdguy1138> | they only started doing this in the last few months , afaik |
| 05:19:57 | <@JAA> | Like, one request per 5-10 seconds? Ew. |
| 05:22:22 | <@OrIdow6> | Question is whether it works based on total load |
| 05:22:36 | <@OrIdow6> | Though of course that does mean that it's out of QWarc's reach |
| 05:23:21 | <nerdguy1138> | i was focused on saving as many stories as i could, i got almost 9 million, so i think i dd pretty well. |
| 05:23:43 | <@JAA> | OrIdow6: Nothing is out of qwarc's reach. :-) |
| 05:24:01 | <@JAA> | All it needs is a bunch of IPs and a bit of iptables magic. :-P |
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| 05:43:09 | <@OrIdow6> | JAA: Oh, I suppose |
| 05:43:15 | <@OrIdow6> | QWarc does seem pretty nice |
| 05:43:42 | <@JAA> | Thanks, just don't look too closely or you'll see the nasty intestines. :-P |
| 05:44:27 | <@OrIdow6> | Well, that's all useful software |
| 05:45:07 | <@OrIdow6> | *That's a feature of all useful software (original makes sense pronounced, not written) |
| 05:45:47 | <@JAA> | Guess so, but this is particularly bad. Monkey-patching internal parts of a third-party package. :-P |
| 05:47:42 | <@JAA> | (Also, I'm a bit picky in that regrad, but the correct spelling of the name is qwarc, not QWarc.) |
| 05:52:35 | <Ryz> | Oh good, that means I can continue pronouncing it as 'qwark' x3 |
| 05:57:30 | <@JAA> | While I'm at it, the correct pronunciation is exactly like quark (the subatomic particle). :-) |
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| 08:31:47 | <rewby> | JAA: re "All it needs is a bunch of IPs" HCross or me can likely assist with that if you need |
| 08:32:01 | <@HCross> | not for a few days |
| 08:32:15 | <@HCross> | that box is going in for open-server-surgery later tonight |
| 08:33:35 | <rewby> | Ah, well I have a /24 on hand anyway |
| 08:34:19 | <@HCross> | (the fear of dread dawns as I realise it involves a fight with _that_ KVM) |
| 08:34:29 | <rewby> | Need me to help? |
| 08:34:33 | <@HCross> | Potentially tomorrow |
| 08:34:39 | <rewby> | Lmk |
| 08:36:38 | <@JAA> | rewby: Thanks, might get back to one of you about that sometime. Scanning all FFN stories at one request per 10 seconds per IP from a /24 would take about a week. Some would have pagination of course, but seems feasible enough. |
| 08:37:01 | <rewby> | Aight! Let us know. |
| 08:47:23 | <@EggplantN> | I can provide lots of IPs JAA |
| 08:47:35 | <@EggplantN> | If needed before HCross’s box is back |
| 08:48:53 | <@JAA> | Not particularly urgent and needs some more investigation and code writing first anyway, so we'll see. But sounds great, thanks. |
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| 09:50:32 | <s-crypt> | Is there a way to download quite a bit of larger videos from dropbox? I cannot download all of them because it says "the zip is too large" |
| 09:53:13 | <s-crypt> | I have this that would be nice to archive but I really dont want to go and download all of them manually |
| 09:53:13 | <s-crypt> | https://transfer.notkiska.pw/jwU2x/Wintergatan%20Video%20Masters%20Archive%20Link%20V2.pdf |
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| 17:01:12 | <HiccupJul> | does archivebot function differently to the wayback machine's "save page"/built-in scraping features? |
| 17:01:46 | <HiccupJul> | if so, how are those two datasets reconciled when an archivebot warc is added to the wayback machine? |
| 17:03:46 | <masterX244> | Wayback uses the closest WARC record to the given timestamp from a WARC file |
| 17:05:57 | <HiccupJul> | so if there was one made by the wayback machine itself, that maybe missed some sort of dynamic content, and then one a few seconds afterwards made with archivebot, which might have better support for some dynamic content (i guess), then changing the datetime you are currently viewing would switch between a "complete" and "incomplete" page? |
| 17:08:36 | <HiccupJul> | also, i want to archive a reddit thread, but neither archive.org or archive.is get anything apart from the top 100 or so comments. what's a good tool for archiving a whole thread? |
| 17:13:41 | <@EggplantN> | maybe #archivebot ? |
| 17:14:32 | <@EggplantN> | #shreddit may have already archived it |
| 17:20:53 | <thuban> | s-crypt: script https://github.com/dropbox/dbxcli to get them one at a time automatically? |
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| 17:23:29 | <HiccupJul> | i'll try archivebot |
| 17:24:57 | <HiccupJul> | is there a known reason why archivebot works better on some pages? is it a purposeful decision by the internet archive to limit the wayback machine? (i know Archive Team isn't the wayback machine, but IA stopped responding to emails) |
| 17:27:56 | <thuban> | what do you mean exactly by "works better"? |
| 17:32:03 | <HiccupJul> | i think i misremembered something about archivebot working better on dynamic content. |
| 17:32:24 | <HiccupJul> | *possibly misremembered |
| 17:35:29 | <thuban> | i think so. "Save Page Now" is based on brozzler, a browser emulator (which can execute javascript), while archivebot is based on wpull (which can't), so spn is generically going to be better for sites that depend on dynamic content. (it's not perfect, though, so sites that serve a dynamic version to spn and a non-dynamic version (eg because of the user-agent) to archivebot |
| 17:35:31 | <thuban> | may work better in the latter) |
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| 17:36:48 | <thuban> | warcs from archiveteam _projects_ do include dynamic content, since they're manually scripted to do so |
| 17:37:12 | <HiccupJul> | ah i see |
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| 17:37:50 | <HiccupJul> | thanks, that makes things much clearer |
| 17:43:38 | <thuban> | so no, i don't think archivebot would get you the entire thread automatically. i was going to suggest that you peek at the 'more comments' network requests and submit all of them to ab, since that should make them play back properly in the wbm, but it seems that they're POSTs. iirc wbm can handle those but archivebot can't |
| 17:49:04 | <HiccupJul> | the more comment links seem to use form data and/or cookies |
| 17:49:11 | <HiccupJul> | so it doesn't seem like the url is enough |
| 17:49:28 | <HiccupJul> | url is just "https://www.reddit.com/api/morechildren" for expanding sub-comments |
| 17:51:26 | <thuban> | that's what i said, yes :) |
| 17:54:30 | <HiccupJul> | ah right "Form Data" = POST |
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| 18:28:21 | <wessel1512> | is there a project that can help me archive the home.xs4all.nl homepages |
| 18:29:11 | <thuban> | can you describe the problem in more detail? (do you already have a list of urls?) |
| 18:29:37 | <wessel1512> | a small first one yes |
| 18:31:43 | <thuban> | how big? do the urls represent entire "homepages" or just the front pages of small sites? what would you need to do to get a more complete list? |
| 18:32:00 | <wessel1512> | i believe that there probably upwords of a half million sites |
| 18:32:28 | <thuban> | in total or in your list |
| 18:32:43 | <wessel1512> | in total |
| 18:32:56 | <wessel1512> | just begon scraping |
| 18:33:23 | <wessel1512> | my fist list has 350 urls |
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| 18:33:54 | <wessel1512> | the sites can be very big |
| 18:34:14 | <wessel1512> | but most of them are pretty small |
| 18:35:38 | <wessel1512> | example http://apperljh.home.xs4all.nl |
| 18:36:08 | <thuban> | ok. that puts it out of scope for urls (no recursion) but it should be doable with archivebot. is that right, JAA? |
| 18:37:22 | <wessel1512> | archivebot is off limits for his project |
| 18:37:48 | <thuban> | why's that? |
| 18:38:59 | <wessel1512> | probably because it wood clog the system |
| 18:39:36 | <thuban> | i'm not sure what you mean. did someone tell you that? |
| 18:40:16 | <wessel1512> | yea jaa sed no |
| 18:41:15 | <@JAA> | I'm sure 350 is nowhere near the actual number. |
| 18:41:35 | <@JAA> | Also, let's take this to #webroasting because that's exactly what the channel exists for. |
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