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03:56:26<pabs>https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/internet-policy/proposed-remedies-browsers/
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15:58:45<hexa->uh-huh
15:59:09<hexa->pretty sure that hurting google at this point helps
15:59:13<hexa->but what do I know
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17:01:58<nukke>does anyone here use Ladybird?
17:16:40<steering>it's amazing how many times mozilla felt the need to reinforce that they are "independent"
17:17:03<steering>and also "everyday users" are suffering... even though they acknowledge they're only 1.15%
17:45:55<@JAA>Of search queries, not web users, which is more like 3-4% depending on which source you trust, but yeah.
17:46:39<@JAA>That could mean that Firefox users are more likely to use a different search engine than the average user, for example.
17:47:24that_lurker read Of as short for OnlyFans and was confused
17:47:37<@JAA>that_lurker bonk++
17:47:37<eggdrop>[karma] 'that_lurker bonk' now has 21 karma!
17:49:50<steering>I mean, yes. The point stands though, "everyday users" don't use firefox and don't care :p
17:50:23<@JAA>Yeah, which is a problem, but I have no idea how that could be fixed.
17:50:41<steering>mmh
18:02:43<nukke>But "everyday users" *are* suffering regardless of whether they use Firefox or not
18:04:11<steering>sure, but ensuring firefox's continued non-independent survival won't change that
18:04:32<nukke>I wanna say that a decent amount of users use some form of adblocking. with chrome automatically disabling uBO as of this past week, I would count that as "suffering" from a browser monopoly
18:04:51<nukke>steering: what are the alternatives, though? realistically
18:04:57<nukke>short- and medium-term options
18:05:19<nukke>seem obvious by just cutting high-level exec costs
18:05:26<nukke>but long-term survival looks bleak
18:16:03<steering>this is a good question.
18:16:32<steering>Firefox *is* the best option we have as far as an alternative. I mean, really, it's the only option.
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18:17:55<steering>I think killing off adblock shows that Google already believes they basically have monopoly control over web browsing. And I mean, they're right on a few levels.
18:19:04<steering>The fact that Mozilla is dependent on them for funding means that they have leverage over Mozilla, maybe they haven't used that leverage to date, the leverage is still there, and if I were an exec at Mozilla I probably wouldn't want to do something that would risk angering them.
18:20:07<steering>But also, the fact that the vast majority of people who use the web use a Chromium derivative.
18:21:34<steering>How many people are going to switch to Firefox just to keep using ubo instead of ubo lite? And who's to say that Google won't say in 5 or 10 years "Mozilla, stop supporting Manifest V2 or we stop funding you"?
18:21:38<that_lurker>Mozilla could quite easily get Microsoft to give them funds to get Bing as default as well. Though Microsoft is not that much better option :-|
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18:22:21<nukke>Do people willingly choose to use Bing? Google giving Mozilla a bunch of money makes sense
18:22:41<steering>Yeah, Microsoft would probably just stand right there with Google on anything that I hate though :P
18:22:48<nukke>But Microsoft, likely not seeing a good return of investment, will either cut funding or twist Mozilla's arm
18:23:38<steering>I'm sure MS would be willing to pay them, clearly not at the level that Google is, I'm sure they've had them bid against each other
18:23:41<nukke>Also you're probably right steering, most people seem to use Chromium browsers and not Chrome specifically, at least that's been my experience
18:23:56<steering>(or MS has decided not to even try because they knew Google was paying more than they'd be willing)
18:24:28<steering>the majority is Chrome as well, but not as overwhelmingly as Chromium-derivatives together
18:24:50<that_lurker>I'm still waiting for Servo to mature and 100% functional browser using that to come out
18:25:06<nukke>One thing that drives me nuts with Firefox is how shit the YouTube experience is
18:25:21<nukke>That's not Mozilla's fault but it drives me insane
18:25:40<steering>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers
18:25:52<nukke>that_lurker: same 1.0 release date as GNU Hurd
18:25:57<steering>I'd love to know where the other ~10% comes from, lol
18:26:12<steering>nukke: someone in here told me to turn off ambient mode and YUP
18:26:35<nukke>Other == IE?
18:26:38<steering>YT is still buggy as hell but that's true in Chrome too, the ambient mode is just hella laggy in Firefox
18:26:52<steering>maybe? or like, curl and googlebot and junk? is all of that stuff getting filtered before making these %s? who knows
18:27:06<nukke>I guess all of those combined
18:27:12<steering>(I assume bots are filtered or they'd be WAY bigger)
18:27:36<nukke>Do web scraping bots pose as Mozilla /Gecko still?
18:27:58<steering>Even Chrome poses as Mozilla/Gecko.
18:28:05that_lurker looks at AB -u firefox
18:30:39<steering>The "biggest" bots mostly
18:30:39<steering>OBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOB
18:30:45<steering>OBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBOBhttps://github.com/monperrus/crawler-user-agents/blob/master/crawler-user-agents.json
18:30:52<steering>... lol oops, sorry
18:31:09<that_lurker>OWO
18:31:11<nukke>uh
18:31:15<steering>I made the mistake of opening my 955k-line access_log in vim and the entire VPS slowed to a crawl, yay
18:31:21<steering>anyway, https://github.com/monperrus/crawler-user-agents/blob/master/crawler-user-agents.json
18:31:34<steering>lots of them still claim to be Mozilla, but not usually Firefox
18:33:10<nukke>Is there a reason for this, m
18:33:12<nukke>?*
18:33:54<steering>netscape navigator
18:34:10<steering>https://www.useragentstring.com/pages/Netscape/
18:34:24<steering>and 00s websites that did user-agent whitelisting stuff
18:34:38<@JAA>lol, AB made it onto that list, but it's a version from 8 years ago.
18:35:15<@JAA>Also, I don't think that particular string was ever used, but I guess they might be going for prefix or even substring.
18:35:46<steering>i think "pattern" is supposed to be whats used and "instances" are just examples seen in the wild
18:35:53<@JAA>Ah
18:36:08<@JAA>Yeah
18:41:39<katia>obobobobobobobo
18:50:05<steering>down arrow :P
18:58:34<steering>Wow, php is 30 years old.
19:02:54<nukke>30 years of misery and pain
19:12:59<that_lurker>same age as Javascript
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21:56:35<nukke>30 years of societal decline
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22:18:12<myself>seven more to go
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