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02:33:43<nicolas17>inb4 upwork engineer wrote that code with an LLM
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02:57:03<ymgve_>but really, all cloud providers should have a big "I would rather have prod crash than billing going over $x"
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04:19:08<nulldata>https://x.com/JosephPattonWx/status/1880432285910200589
04:19:08<eggdrop>nitter: https://xcancel.com/JosephPattonWx/status/1880432285910200589
04:19:18<nulldata>Corporate consolidation strikes again!
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09:04:01<joepie91|m>ymgve_: that would threaten their business model though
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09:51:27<steering>why on earth does Discourse think that I want to get regular emails forever telling me about new topics because I signed up to ask for help with something once? -.-
10:01:45<joepie91|m>that's an administrative setting, you can override it in your user settings
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17:12:24<qwertyasdfuiopghjkl2>https://www.404media.co/meta-is-blocking-links-to-decentralized-instagram-competitor-pixelfed/
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17:34:32<szczot3k>https://notes.ghed.in/posts/2025/bluesky-free-our-feeds-mastodon/
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20:31:15<nukke>it is a little bit ironic that people are migrating away from twitter because it's a centralized service owned by a billionare and moving to... a pseudo-federated (but really, centralized) service owned by someone worth ~5bill
20:31:31<szczot3k>yup
20:31:41<nukke>disappointed by cory's article, tho :(
20:31:52<szczot3k>I don't like it that masto lost to bsky
20:31:59<nukke>I'm sure the mastodon foundation would appreciate 1mill, let alone 30mill
20:32:16<joepie91|m>I would not say that it has 'lost' by any metric that actually matters
20:32:40<joepie91|m>it has only 'lost' by metrics that benefit specifically the people who got us into this mess in the first place
20:33:11<szczot3k>joepie91|m it lost as in masto will still be the platform for IT-related nerds, mainstream migrated to bsky
20:33:35<nukke>https://fedidb.org/software/mastodon
20:33:39<szczot3k>I won't find my IRL friends on masto, the same way I'm not getting them to migrate to matrix any time soon
20:33:59<joepie91|m>genuine engagement on fedi is better than on bluesky, abuse is less prominent, communities are stronger and closer, and it is far more resilient to bad actors. the only metric that fedi 'loses' on, is "rapid acquisition of new users", which is a metric that only matters if you are a VC trying to monopolize a market long enough to cash out
20:34:06<szczot3k>Total users: 7,658,738 - some instagram accounts have more followers than that
20:34:57<nukke>as joepie91|m said, how much engagement do those accounts get from their 7m followers?
20:35:25<nukke>tho tbh the only popular mastodon posts I see in other social media platforms are almsot exclusively from infosec.exchange
20:35:47<nukke>most other servers are kinda in their own bubble if you're looking from an outside perspective
20:35:54<szczot3k>I like masto, but it will be an island of people from the IT field (and similiar). I'm not sharing cat memes with my best friend on mastodon
20:36:09<joepie91|m>szczot3k: honestly I think your expectations are unrealistic, and tainted by VC-backed platforms which optimize for maximum scale. your friends are going to be where you convince them to go, generally speaking, and the idea that you can just somehow *expect* them to magically all show up in one convenient place is a completely new phenomenon that was never going to be sustainable
20:36:34<joepie91|m>social contact has never worked that way and it cannot work that way because people have diverse interests and social circles
20:36:47<szczot3k>joepie91|m and I agree with that, but it's hard to get people to switch platform. My best friend won't get any relatable content on masto
20:37:02<joepie91|m>which is exactly why every "world-scale platform" invariably blows up into a hotbed of abuse
20:37:28<joepie91|m>szczot3k: of course it's hard. social contact is hard. maintaining relationships is hard. building communities is hard. this has always been hard
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20:37:54<joepie91|m>that does not mean it is not worth doing
20:39:32<joepie91|m>the tradeoff is really very simple; either you put in the work to build your communities and you have control over what happens to them, or you outsource that work to a corporation and then you're subject to their whims. there is no third option
20:39:56<szczot3k>I'll get a friend to sign up on milliways.social, and then what? There's no people from, say, music, fashion, medicine. I can probably get her to follow some cat hashtags, and myself. and that's all
20:40:26<joepie91|m>and yet I regularly see posts about music, fashion, and medicine floating by on my federated feed
20:40:40<szczot3k>I can't even get relatable news from poland, except from maybe one or two security outlets
20:41:21<nukke>szczot3k: I'm confused. what is your point? what sort of engagement are you looking for?
20:41:35<nukke>these platforms depend on, for better or worse, organic growth
20:41:58<nukke>you're not gonna see e.g. a mastodon ad on the bus or train unless *YOU* buy spot
20:42:38<nukke>if *you* are not spreading cat memes on mastodon.pl or whatever large polish instance is, then nobody will
20:43:00<nukke>but you have to be realistic with your expections: you're not gonna get multiple (if any, really) replies right away
20:43:18<szczot3k>Just saying that bsky saw a massive influx of users, because "important accounts" moved there, and after that a lot of users jumped ship. Building any community around mastodon will be hard, because now it's viewed as "The IT folks playground"
20:43:49<joepie91|m>and yet people are constantly building community around fedi, including people who have nothing to do with IT
20:43:52<nukke>yeah true, and I think that's cory doctorow's point: mastodon is for the boring nerds, and bluesky is the party place
20:44:03<nukke>but that's kinda... not the point of mastodon
20:44:09<szczot3k>And I hate that!
20:44:33<nukke>the situation could be worse. it could've gone the way of diaspora :P
20:44:47<joepie91|m>like. you mentioned the milliways instance. that is going to get you a lot of nerds, obviously, because that's a nerd instance
20:44:47<nukke>but mastodon is seeing (slow) growth
20:44:56<joepie91|m>the problem there is not 'fedi' or 'mastodon'
20:44:56<szczot3k>My friend won't jump ship before masto is 'relevant', and it won't get 'relevant' if my friend won't jump ship
20:45:27<joepie91|m>and what exactly does 'relevant' mean here?
20:47:33<szczot3k>Enough of people she follows on faceobok/insta/twitter, and she wants to keep following, jump ship
20:48:02<szczot3k>And I know that is a big ask :)
20:48:43<joepie91|m>okay, then you will forever be doomed to live in a corporate theme park that will screw you over with no notice, because that is the "outsource your community building to a corporation" option and the only way to meet that requirement instantly is through a monopoly-seeking VC platform
20:49:09<joepie91|m>that is not a fedi problem, that is an expectation management problem
20:50:04<joepie91|m>no community-operated platform can ever 'succeed' by this set of expectations, basically
20:51:52<szczot3k>I've (started to) jumped ship, and stopped using facebook/twitter/instagram, because I care about things, but I don't expect my IRL friends, who wants to look at her fav musician posts on her fav platform. Sure, I'll try to invite them, but it'll be the same as with matrix - I'm the only one in their circle who wants that
20:52:28<szczot3k>english isn't englishing today, disregard my stupid mistakes for now pls
20:52:38<nicolas17>nukke: "owned by someone worth ~5bill" who is that?
20:52:57<joepie91|m>what have you done to try and convince them to come over?
20:53:03<nukke>Jack Dorsey, nicolas17
20:53:21<nicolas17>"Former Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey left Bluesky Social's board by May 2024"
20:53:22<nicolas17>is he still "owner" in any meaningful sense?
20:54:22<szczot3k>joepie91|m the only thing I really can, which is "Come one, it's fun, I'm there". In matrix's case - they don't care about encryption, federation, data privacy (~that much~), they don't have any communities in common.
20:54:51<joepie91|m>szczot3k: that is absolutely not "the only thing you really can", and if that is what you have done, then I am not surprised that nobody has come over
20:55:24<joepie91|m>you mention that there's no music, fashion, medicine on fedi. I regularly see it float by. this suggests to me that you haven't made very much effort to help them find such people on feid
20:55:26<joepie91|m>fedi*
20:56:01<joepie91|m>so that would probably be a good place to start, helping them find a place that matches their interests, like a well-suited instance, and maybe some things to follow
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20:58:37<szczot3k>joepie91|m I've joined fedi pretty much today, so I'm still learning, and I'll admit that I didn't put much effort. But in the matrix's case, I can't say that even putting this effort I'd find anything useful for them. Messenger (in our case, which is what I'd be fighting against) is what ~95% of conversations between our age group happen. Most
20:58:37<szczot3k>people also have telegram, whatsapp, instgram, and snapchat to name a few. Matrix would just be another one, where people can... find me.
20:59:11<joepie91|m>sure, Matrix is a different beast, with different solutions. but the one that came up here was fedi
20:59:36<joepie91|m>so that is the one I am commenting on
21:00:30<joepie91|m>the more fundamental point I am trying to make here is that you do actually need to put in the effort to make things like fedi work for you and your friends, community-run things do not magically spawn out of the aether, they are the result of a lot of people each doing their part in making it work
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21:00:52<joepie91|m>and this is a non-optional part of escaping the grip of tech companies
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21:02:58<joepie91|m>(more personally speaking, it's kind of depressing to me how people seem to have unlearned en masse how to collectively run community things)
21:03:15<szczot3k>Right, and it's hard. Even for me finding people in tech to follow, was hard on fedi
21:05:55<nukke>I will agree that matrix is ridiculously hard to navigate for the average user
21:06:35<szczot3k>I've used matrix as the example, because I was actually trying to get move some group chats on matrix
21:06:37<nukke>It's also an even bigger pain to administer
21:07:28<szczot3k>so far my homeserver wasn't that hard to administer
21:10:19<joepie91|m>well yeah, it is hard; see above, maintaining relationships has always been hard. in the past you would have to try out and join clubs until you found one that was right for you. you had to phone up people and plan to meet them somewhere to catch up. and so on
21:10:35<joepie91|m>that is just in the nature of maintaining relationships
21:11:11<joepie91|m>some things are just hard and you just have to accept that, learn to deal with it, and move on
21:12:33<joepie91|m>it's very easy to spend a lot of energy lamenting how hard it is to do something, more energy than it would cost to learn how to deal with it
21:15:02<joepie91|m>and I realize that I am probably sounding a little harsh here, but the convenience of world-scale social networks is a mirage with severe costs to everyone involved, closer to a slot machine than to a genuine means of social connection, and the only way to get out of that is to reject that expectation of faux convenience
21:20:18<szczot3k>joepie91|m sure, just want to emphasise that most of my friends are twenty-something. Most of us have had access to 'a social network' all of our life, and it's a big part of the connections we've made
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21:22:50<joepie91|m>szczot3k: sure. that just means you still need to learn how to build genuine community
21:23:01<joepie91|m>which is a crucial life skill
21:23:26<nukke>joepie91|m: as a counterpoint, you make it sound easier than it is
21:23:39<joepie91|m>you're just at a disadvantage for it
21:23:52<joepie91|m>nukke: I'm not sure how many more times I can say 'hard' :)
21:23:56<nukke>right. it's a time investment
21:24:04<nukke>and technical and skill investment
21:24:09<szczot3k>I just feel like we're talking about xkcd standard, but with a social network
21:24:28<nukke>as you egt older, resources (time, money, sanity) get more scarce
21:24:40<pabs>how many social networks died during your online lifetime?
21:24:58pabs . o O 0 ( MySpace )
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21:25:05<szczot3k>pabs that I've personally used? 1.5
21:25:11<joepie91|m>szczot3k: the exact social network is kind of besides the point, this isn't even about fedi really, that just happens to be the easiest starting point for this right now
21:25:29<pabs>huh, that is pretty tiny. I feel like 10s of them are gone
21:25:31<nukke>hi5, xanga, livejournal, myspace, diaspora, digg (like 3 times), twitter
21:25:45<joepie91|m>but 'building community and relationships' is a generic skill that can be applied regardless of environment
21:26:21<szczot3k>Counting twitter 2.5 - nk (nasza klasa), myspace (the 0.5, I wasn't actually a member, but heard of it), twitter
21:26:40<pabs>nk is polish?
21:26:50<szczot3k>It was
21:27:10<szczot3k>https://nk.pl/
21:27:14pabs reads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasza-klasa.pl
21:27:15<nukke>joepie91|m: generic? no, not at all. how many irl, non-techie people that you personally know are on mastodon?
21:28:08<joepie91|m>I fail to see what that has to do with my comment
21:28:43<@OrIdow6>joepie91|m: I guess the way I read it is that you're kind of advocating for a like.... paleo diet with socialization, go back to the era of small forums or chatrooms or whatever, and the rest of us (or at least those in our 20s) have grown up with mcdonalds
21:28:53<szczot3k>The site was also popular in Norway, where it was the fifth most popular social networking website in 2009 > huh, the more you know
21:29:02<nukke>joepie91|m: it directly addresses szczot3k main complaint: how do you get the general population to join the fediverse?
21:29:28<@OrIdow6>It's hard, there are a ton of people on Bluesky nee Twitter who I've talked to once or twice and would like to see if I'm more compatible with
21:29:58<joepie91|m>nukke: slowly and deliberately. but that is a separate question from the point about learning how to build community *in general*
21:30:15<nukke>joepie91|m: you're not just "building a community," but you're also becoming your e.g. friend's IT guy for this specific thing
21:30:44<joepie91|m>yes, "helping your friends fit into a new environment" is typically part of building community
21:30:53<nukke>which client do you download? which server do you join? what's your useranme? @joepie91(at)whichserver?
21:31:05<nukke>my point is that it's not a 'generic' skill
21:31:26<nukke>it's time, patience and knowhow
21:31:27<joepie91|m>nukke: none of that is "the skill of community building" that I was talking about
21:31:47<nukke>what do you think is a 'community'?
21:32:18<nukke>if I or szczot3k want to build an online community with my irl community, ALL of these skills come into play
21:32:23<nukke>skills and resources
21:32:51<nukke>unless I'm misunderstanding what *your* interpretation of the word 'community' is, I think you're downplaying szczot3k's argument
21:33:09<joepie91|m>OrIdow6: yes and no. simply put, people who have grown up only ever knowing global-scale social networks are at a severe disadvantage socially, because that means they have only ever known a fundamentally unsustainable model that is at the point of exploding forever. your options to respond to that are to either a) belatedly learn how to do community and relationship management in a sustainable manner, but before things explode, or b) wait
21:33:09<joepie91|m>for things to explode and find yourself isolated and scrambling to recover
21:33:18<joepie91|m>this situation fucking sucks but it is nevertheless the situation we have
21:34:05<joepie91|m>global-scale social networks have briefly sort-of-appeared-to-work because people had not yet gotten wise to the issues, and tensions had not built up yet. that was a one-time margin for error that is not going to return.
21:35:58<joepie91|m>and yes, that is going to mean that that 'magical connectivity' is going to be lost. that is a fact, and is going to happen regardless of whether people learn how to build community in time, because this model could never actually work
21:36:24<joepie91|m>ie. it is sink or swim
21:37:41<joepie91|m>nukke: community building is about things like boundaries, setting expectations, organizing spaces *and the maintenance thereof*, distributing the work of upkeep and each doing one's part in that
21:38:35<joepie91|m>whether that community is an organized club around a shared interest, or a friend group, doesn't really matter beyond maybe "the amount of upkeep required and the shape of the boundaries and expectations"
21:39:42<szczot3k>having just one community on a given platform isn't enough to switch - I'm on IRC, matrix, messenger, just because the communities are there. My friends won't ditch facebook, because Zuckerberg is an alien, and also they've started fedi
21:40:03<joepie91|m>this means that community building includes "being willing to do the work of supporting your friends in their participation, and your friends being willing to do the same in return". exactly what that work is, is going to vary by context
21:41:04<joepie91|m>szczot3k: the whole notion of 'switching' (ie. there being one thing that everyone is reachable at) is in and of itself absurd and unsustainable, frankly. it's equivalent to expecting every single person to meet in the exact same physical venue at the same time
21:41:31<joepie91|m>genuine community can exist irrespective of the venue that hosts it
21:42:54<nicolas17><szczot3k> I just feel like we're talking about xkcd standard, but with a social network
21:42:56<@OrIdow6>joepie91|m: So is there a benefit to eating natural food, before the apocalypse except to prepare for it, or if it doesn't happen within my lifetime?
21:43:00<nicolas17>szczot3k: https://xkcd.com/1810/
21:43:15<szczot3k>nicolas17 of course there's xkcd for that :D
21:43:18<@OrIdow6>It's hard for me to imagine what a collapse would look like
21:43:31<@OrIdow6>I thought Twitter had a good chance of doing it but it just got recreated as Bluesky
21:43:37<@OrIdow6>And everyone on there moved there
21:43:50<joepie91|m>bluesky is already in the process of collapse
21:43:57<szczot3k>I'm also pissed at having to juggle 5 social platforms at once
21:44:56<joepie91|m>OrIdow6: re: "what a collapse would look like": mostly a complete lack of social stability, constant lost connections with people (some subset of them permanent), and an inability to speak freely with friends
21:45:39<joepie91|m>for an estimated timescale of "global-scale social media becoming completely unusable", think years rather than decades
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21:48:43joepie91|m should go to bed soon, hospital procedure planned early tomorrow
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21:53:37<@OrIdow6>joepie91|m: Good luck
21:54:12<@OrIdow6>Don't have any articulate thoughts on this yet, maybe I'll have some tomorrow
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21:56:07<joepie91|m>thanks
21:56:14<joepie91|m>(with a bit of luck I get to go back home tomorrow)
21:57:23<@OrIdow6>Oof talk about not being in your 20s
21:57:43<joepie91|m>30s :)
21:57:51<joepie91|m>got a kidney transplant 4 days ago
22:03:12<szczot3k>I should treat my colon... but even thinking of it makes my anxiety go up
22:07:04<@OrIdow6>joepie91|m: Welp... ow, nice to hear it (apparently) worked tho
22:09:04<joepie91|m>oh yeah, it was a resounding success
22:10:07<joepie91|m>>90% kidney function now (used to have 10%), almost no side-effects from the (large quantities of) medication, all blood values looking good, and seemingly several days ahead of the optimistic recovery-from-surgery schedule, to the bafflement of medical staff
22:10:33<joepie91|m>textbook surgery on both the part of the donor and me
22:10:45<joepie91|m>basically, on all accounts, it appears to be a perfect transplant
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