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00:36:11<Gooshka>https://telegra.ph/file/135a0b76e552de2318d5c.png
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01:48:56<fireonlive>-+rss- The first human received an implant from Neuralink yesterday: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1752098683024220632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39183888
01:48:57<eggdrop>nitter: https://farside.link/nitter/elonmusk/status/1752098683024220632
01:48:58<fireonlive>good fucking luck
01:50:01<Gooshka>So, Musk will control the humanity, not Gates.
01:50:22<fireonlive>i guess so!
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04:28:44<@JAA>archive.ph is still nginxing me.
04:31:05<Terbium>weird, I'm getting the site
04:33:40<@JAA>qwertyasdfuiopghjkl said it had happened to them before. So apparently nothing new.
04:33:44<@JAA>Certainly weird though, yeah.
04:34:22<Terbium>iirc the guy behind archive.ph has load balancers
04:34:43<fireonlive><sharetheload.gif>
04:35:27<fireonlive>5.34.183.178 for archive.ph for me
04:35:29<@JAA>I see an 'unsupported=1' cookie, wonder if that has anything to do with it.
04:35:59<@JAA>I'm getting the nginx page once, then connection timeouts for some time.
04:36:36<qwertyasdfuiopghjkl>It only happened for a short time for me, definitely less than a day (maybe up to a few hours). Are the other TLDs doing the same?
04:37:14<@JAA>Well, they're all timing out now, as did they when I tested it before. But I guess I should try one of them after not requesting anything for a while.
04:39:12<fireonlive>hm yeah i just have a _GA=GA1.2.<elided> cookie
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04:43:18<qwertyasdfuiopghjkl>Same for me, except the _ga= at the start is lowercase.
04:49:53<fireonlive>oops, mine too
04:49:55<fireonlive>transcription error
04:52:34<@JAA>I've removed that cookie, so we'll see what happens when I get taken off the naughty list next time.
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05:08:33<qwertyasdfuiopghjkl>I replaced my cookies with unsupported=1 and reloaded the page, which made it give me the nginx page. When I reloaded again, it couldn't connect (didn't take much time to give the error so I guess something other than a timeout) and when I reloaded it a third time it timed out.
05:11:04<fireonlive>oh wow
05:11:58<qwertyasdfuiopghjkl>(I'm now also getting timeouts on .is and .today, which I didn't change the cookie on)
05:19:36<fireonlive>the cookie of death
05:19:46<qwertyasdfuiopghjkl>I'm guessing it's a way of saving that you're banned from the site across IPs. (If this is the same thing that happened to me, I probably didn't have it for as long because I was using a private window so the cookie went away when I closed it.)
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05:23:46<qwertyasdfuiopghjkl>I now deleted the cookies and refreshed, site is loading as normal now. Assuming the timeout ban times aren't different, it should probably be working for JAA by now too.
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05:40:46<fireonlive>https://dl.fireon.live/irc/1c178aad45ee15da/image.png
05:41:16<fireonlive>switches with built in AC/DC? I wonder how much licensing cost for that 🎶🎸
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07:48:54<fireonlive>https://twitter.com/NonCRDDefence/status/1751736522435338575
07:48:54<eggdrop>nitter: https://farside.link/nitter/NonCRDDefence/status/1751736522435338575
07:49:02<fireonlive>>Less than an hour ago someone posted some docs on the Eurofighter and they all had in bold letters NATO RESTRICTED. Well done boys, first of the year.
07:49:14<fireonlive>aw
07:49:20<fireonlive>>People have already found the source of them and they are publically purchasable online for $9.00
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12:28:00<kiska>JAA: Did you know this exists? https://tuxcare.com/extended-lifecycle-support/python-els/
12:28:01<kiska>:D
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15:03:29<SootBector>https://bytepursuits.com/google-significantly-reduces-recaptcha-free-tier-introduces-new-pricing-models
15:04:15<SootBector>1m down to 10k per month
15:04:45<joepie91|m>lmfao
15:05:04<joepie91|m>charging people for training your AI shit for you, genius
15:05:19<SootBector>did we finish tagging all the fire hydrants?
15:05:35<joepie91|m>I expect that that'll make some people think a bit more carefully about how much recaptcha is actually helping them anymore...
15:05:58<SootBector>I imagine a lot will switch to hcaptcha without considering it
15:06:48<SootBector>good thing for the rest yes
15:11:04jasons (jasons) joins
15:11:29<Terbium>iirc hCaptcha is more difficult than reCaptcha which is going to make archiving websites more difficult
15:12:34<joepie91|m>I mean, captchas as a category are basically just broken by this point
15:12:40<joepie91|m>LLMs were the last nail in that coffin
15:13:06<joepie91|m>I'm hoping for people to start realizing that and stop stuffing captchas into everything
15:13:16<joepie91|m>(there are better solutions anyway)
15:14:18<SootBector>to read this line please slide the puzzle piece into place
15:14:50<SootBector>I hope so too, perhaps a good moment to do a bit of a "you don't need captcha" campaigning
15:15:02<joepie91|m>yeah
15:15:14<joepie91|m>I've been trying to get more people to think about invite trees, with limited success
15:15:33<joepie91|m>they don't really gain traction as a mass-market concept because they are not a good fit for the Facebooks of this world
15:15:48<joepie91|m>but for anything you actually care about, they would be great5
15:15:50<joepie91|m>great*
15:15:59<Terbium>going to be difficult to change, people are just going to use the next best free thing sadly
15:16:06<SootBector>as in users invite other users?
15:16:12<SootBector>to view a website?
15:16:36<joepie91|m>basically: you can only create an account by getting an invite from someone else, those invites are unlimited, and the responsibility for the person you invited is very limited, the only thing you need to do is "not hand out hundreds or thousands of invites to spammers"
15:16:48<SootBector>right, yes
15:16:57<Terbium>it's used in a bunch of places like private trackers and bluesky
15:17:08<SootBector>I'm more thinking of all the sites that throw captchas just to view pages
15:17:08<joepie91|m>this handily addresses the spam problem because getting invites does not work at scale, and so all spam accounts will live under a handful of subtrees of the invite tree and you can wipe them out at once
15:17:28<joepie91|m>Terbium: bluesky does not have this system, private trackers typically also don't
15:17:34<joepie91|m>invite-based systems are different from the invite trees I'm proposing
15:17:42<joepie91|m>the "they are not limited" is a crucial part of the proposal here
15:17:54<Terbium>hmm, most of the PTs I use have this system
15:18:11<Terbium>with occasionally tree prunes making the rounds
15:19:01<joepie91|m>tech companies and trackers do also use invite systems, but they usually do it for a different reason; they do it to either constrain influx of new users, or to drum up hype by making it appear exclusive, therefore there is typically some limitation or delegated responsibility in place (eg. if you invite a shithead, you get banned too). but neither are the point here, the only purpose of the invite tree mechanism here is to group
15:19:01<joepie91|m>together related accounts from spammers into a subtree, and otherwise it is supposed to avoid constraining access in any way
15:19:53<joepie91|m>that "grouping together of mass-created accounts" is literally the only purpose here, and it should not constrain anything in any way or introduce risks or obligations to the user of any sort; it is meant to be equivalent to open-registration, just with a minor technical mitigation
15:20:15<joepie91|m>in that sense, it replaces captchas without reducing access
15:22:02<SootBector>would this be a single use code that you give to me, I put it into the website and it allows me to signup?
15:23:00<joepie91|m>yep
15:23:05<joepie91|m>I can demonstrate it to you actually, one moment
15:23:33<Terbium>what would be the end result of the grouping?
15:23:47<joepie91|m>lmao oops my project is broken, one moment
15:23:48<Terbium>apply different policies such as rate limits to each group?
15:24:02<Terbium>or pruning (mass bans)?
15:24:06<joepie91|m>(I'm implementing this in a thing that is currently mid-development)
15:24:45<joepie91|m>Terbium: the latter; if you identify that eg. >50% of someone's invitees are getting identified for spam/abuse, you can probably safely assume that the remaining invitees are part of the same set of sockpuppets, and ban the entire subtree of that 'root user' at once
15:25:13<joepie91|m>it significantly changes the dynamic of "cost for the spammer to create and user accounts" vs. "cost for the admin to get rid of them", in favour of the admins
15:25:19<joepie91|m>making it not economically viable
15:25:29<joepie91|m>(and/or unsatisfying, for non-commercial abuse forms)
15:27:25<Terbium>to play devil's advocate, if a spam is aware of this system, what would prevent a malicious user (besides the limited count of real users available) from inviting a large amount of human users (over 50%) which generates a tree with a healthy amount of real users inside after which the spam users added. While the end result of a prune removing a large amount of real users (assuming that's important to the platform).
15:27:34<joepie91|m>SootBector: http://joepie91-home.cryto.net:3500/ -- single-use invite code is hBMW1DoLkbn7p6quv17uW
15:27:45<joepie91|m>this site doesn't actually do anything useful yet, still very much in dev
15:27:46<joepie91|m>but the invite mechanism is there
15:27:51<joepie91|m>(is running locally here, in dev)
15:29:32<joepie91|m>Terbium: that is something that is technically possible, and to handle on a case-by-case basis (eg. warning if there are people in the subtree with a good posting reputation). in practice, however, that's unlikely to be worth it for the spammer - distributing invites to a lot of people is a lot of work to do covertly, and it only takes a single admin action to wipe out your entire scheme
15:29:39<joepie91|m>this whole idea rests on incentives alignment basically, "is the cost worth it"
15:29:42<Terbium>another issue is a naive tree prune can end up with lots of issues if a user near the top of the tree is hacked, sells account, etc and either ends up sending spam themselves or inviting spammers. Do we assume that user was a spammer from the start (but pretending to be a real user) or a victim of a hacking attempt. Do we ban the entire tree or just that one user? If we ban the one user, do we move the tree up?
15:30:26<joepie91|m>same response as bove, basically
15:30:27<joepie91|m>above*
15:30:55<joepie91|m>there is an entire spectrum of actions that you could take, mechanisms that you could implement, once you have the data point of "how did people come to exist on this site"
15:31:55<SootBector>if someone's targeting your site, doesn't seem like a huge effort to make say a telegram bot that gives out invite codes?
15:32:00<joepie91|m>simple solutions to spam don't exist, but this is certainly the one with the best cost/benefit tradeoff and capacity for extension that I've encountered so far, and certainly a lot more accessible than captchas (which have numerous problems)
15:32:22<joepie91|m>it doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be better :p
15:33:19<joepie91|m>SootBector: it's also very easy to warn people on eg. the signup form that using a code from a bot is likely to get you caught up in a banwave later, and offer an alternative way to obtain an invite without knowing existing users, through the site directly (which you need anyway, for maximum accessibility)
15:33:23<SootBector>I had to do recaptcha recently to send a support message on a website where I'm a paying customer, and logged in from my home ip
15:33:59<joepie91|m>that alternative method just needs to not be feasibly automatable
15:34:16<joepie91|m>and it can be okay for it to take a while, if it's just an alternative method
15:34:39<SootBector>I enjoyed the bit in the Tor talk at CCC about checking telegram userids, so the censors trying to request bridges didn't get real ones.
15:34:57<SootBector>(telegram has a numerical userid, can tell how old the account is)
15:35:17<joepie91|m>SootBector: (did you see the linked example yet, btw?)
15:35:46<SootBector>thanks, yes it looks good
15:36:16<SootBector>if you can https it I can test
15:36:29<joepie91|m>(the profile page lets you generate additional invite codes, though it's not useful atm as this is just a dev instance :p)
15:36:38<joepie91|m>nah, no https, just a dev server
15:36:52<joepie91|m>you're talking directly to the application process running on my desktop in dev mode heh
15:36:57<SootBector>:)
15:37:12<joepie91|m>literally just started it to demonstrate this
15:38:14<joepie91|m>(that's also why it's so slow heh)
15:38:24<Terbium>I'll be interested to see how it works (if some big service implements this), the fastest ways to determine effectiveness is real-world testing :P
15:38:30<joepie91|m>(it running in dev mode, I mean)
15:38:49<joepie91|m>the only large-scale implementation I know of, is lobsters
15:38:54<@JAA>qwertyasdfuiopghjkl: Thanks for testing. Very weird way of doing sticky bans. lol And I wonder how I ended up with that cookie...
15:39:19<joepie91|m>they have a slightly different variation; their invite tree is actually public
15:39:28<joepie91|m>(I am not convinced that that is necessary for the concept to work, personally)
15:40:48<@JAA>kiska: I did not. Thanks, I hate it.
15:43:57<joepie91|m>Terbium: the main thing is that a Facebook-like platform is unlikely to ever implement this, because they don't actually care about spam/abuse until some external third party demands that they care - their goal is to show the absolute maximum growth numbers possible. so that means that a) introducing *any* sort of hurdle is unlikely to fly, even something relatively easy to get over like an invite tree, people need to be able to sign up
15:43:57<joepie91|m>immediately and without constraints, and b) they don't actually have any reason to be limiting spam signups, because spambots still inflate the growth numbers
15:44:08<joepie91|m>so I do not expect this model to ever be adopted by VC-funded platforms, for example
15:44:47<joepie91|m>but for everyone else, who actually cares about building a thing with a community, IMO it would be a good fit - it just wouldn't make headlines, comparatively
15:44:49<SootBector>yep, and people chatting to bots on your platform ups engagement numbers
15:45:10<joepie91|m>yeah
15:46:45<SootBector>IIRC https://cock.li/ used this system, I notice they're now doing public registration
15:46:47<SootBector>"New accounts receive mail instantly, but are blocked from sending mail until you allow you browser to complete a proof-of-work challenge that only takes a few minutes. "
15:48:24<SootBector>sounds good, viewing/receiving information should be like that on more sites
15:48:53<SootBector>...free of any captcha/invite.
15:49:29<joepie91|m>generally yeah, viewing information shouldn't require any account at all
15:49:35<joepie91|m>(there are exceptions ofc, but broadly)
15:51:58<Terbium>I've seen sites implement account requirements as a means to hampering scrapers
15:52:48<Terbium>aka us lol
15:54:20<myself>we all carry the scars of solving captchas during the yahoo groups dpos...
15:54:38<Terbium>yep, PTSD from that
15:55:16<Terbium>requiring accounts blocks dumb scrapers and also makes it easier to ban rate limit scraping users
15:59:24<@JAA>qwertyasdfuiopghjkl: And yeah, can confirm I can access it again.
16:00:20<SootBector>oh yes, I was last around when you were doing yahoo, helped a little with that
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16:55:24<nicolas17><joepie91|m> charging people for training your AI shit for you, genius
16:55:57<nicolas17>more like the value they're getting from AI training is no longer worth it, time to charge users for the service
16:59:27<nicolas17>welp samsung banned my VPS too
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17:30:57<joepie91|m>nicolas17: worth enough* -- I strongly doubt that it's "not worth it" given the marginal "per-unit" cost of providing a captcha service
18:05:21<fireonlive>if you're trying to browse .ru and it's not working because you have 'that weird thing called DNSSEC' that 'some weird people insist you turn on' even though it provides no benefit (:P) they broke stuff i guess: https://seclists.org/nanog/2024/Jan/433
18:07:22<@JAA>Aah, so that's what showed up on AB earlier.
18:08:15<Barto>Lol
18:08:40<Barto>ahhh, those russians
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18:11:15<fireonlive>x3
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18:15:51<nulldata>https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2401.3/04208.html
18:16:47<fireonlive>i had to look at the date
18:17:09<fireonlive>i guess his courses didn't take :p
18:17:19<@JAA>I was going to say 'just another Tuesday', but too bad it isn't from today. :-)
18:17:28<fireonlive>:3
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18:55:12<project10>https://www.theverge.com/24054329/microsoft-edge-automatic-chrome-import-data-feature
19:05:50<project10>https://i.redd.it/wpvtr5pmskfc1.png
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19:18:53<fireonlive>new from MSCHF: https://ascii.theater/
19:19:04<fireonlive>`ssh -o StrictHostKeyChecking=no watch.ascii.theater`
19:19:06<fireonlive>lol
19:19:43<fireonlive>"Play movies directly in your terminal with a single command. ASCII Theater converts movies into text and operates on a pirate-radio model. We’ll broadcast one movie each day until we get shutdown. Tuesday, 1/30: Barbie Wednesday, 1/31: Hereditary Thursday, 2/1: Citizen Kane Friday, 2/2: Mandalorian: The Mines of Mandalore Saturday, 2/3:
19:19:43<fireonlive>Showgirls Sunday, 2/4: Goodfellas"
19:20:03<fireonlive>there's probably no good way to archive that
19:22:10<fireonlive>project10: nice
19:37:00<@JAA>Hmm, thinking about how that could be archived, but yeah, might be tricky.
19:37:55<@JAA>Neat though!
19:38:19<@JAA>Ah, MSCHF :-)
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20:10:00<fireonlive>:)
21:03:04<nstrom|m>that's pretty wonderful
21:04:07<Barto>nulldata: woah, https://www.linuxfoundation.org/blog/blog/linux-kernel-developer-steven-rostedt that dude is working at vmware for the rt patch series.
21:05:42<Barto>https://www.facesofopensource.com/steven-rostedt-2/ 7 degree black belt, too. Linus is not impressed.
21:07:14<Barto>the guy's answer is worthy to read, good de-escalation
21:10:25<@JAA>https://transfer.archivete.am/inline/M9Kh5/numbers.png
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21:21:01<nicolas17>"Ironically, one of the responsibilities that I've been putting off to fix up eventfs was writing that document on a support group for maintainer burnout"
21:23:12<fireonlive>lol
21:23:55<fireonlive>'how to deal with an asshole as your project owner: a guide'
21:27:01<@JAA>https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/you-can-play-doom-using-gut-bacteria-but-the-framerate-is-atrocious
21:29:26<joepie91|m>JAA: I love how directly below that article is a poll about the Steam Deck OLED
21:29:36<joepie91|m>the contrast literally could not have been greater :)
21:30:02<@JAA>lol :-)
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22:35:57<fireonlive>+rss- .ai website registrations are a windfallf for tiny Anguilla: https://spectrum.ieee.org/ai-domains https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39194477
22:35:58<fireonlive>neat
22:36:20<fireonlive>>Cate: Tuvalu gave [domain registrations] to a big foreign company, and locked themselves in for 50 years. And we’re doing it locally.
22:36:22<fireonlive>oof
22:37:48<@JAA>> a third of the government’s budget
22:37:51<@JAA>Whoa
22:41:54<fireonlive>nuts eh
22:43:37<nicolas17>https://twitter.com/ijustine/status/1752401339752263840
22:43:37<eggdrop>nitter: https://farside.link/nitter/ijustine/status/1752401339752263840
22:45:36<fireonlive>huh.. that's something
22:45:52<fireonlive>it looks like you're dreaming about them though lol
22:46:27<nicolas17>in another video someone said "you look like someone drew you from memory"
22:47:49<fireonlive>haha
22:48:44<nicolas17>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xI10SFgzQ8&t=148s
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