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01:14:49<fireonlive>https://elk.infosec.exchange/infosec.exchange/public/local
01:14:55<fireonlive>interesting new mastodon frontend
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05:21:26<fireonlive>https://twitter.com/vxunderground/status/1709051144301879444
05:21:27<eggdrop>nitter: https://nitter.net/vxunderground/status/1709051144301879444
05:21:28<fireonlive>sorry what
05:21:58<fireonlive>(and is that how you say Linux lol)
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05:42:50<fireonlive>ass-blast from the past: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eluzi70O-P4
05:43:05<fireonlive>"Revolution OS is a 2001 documentary film that traces the twenty-year history of GNU, Linux, open source, and the free software movement."
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08:50:09<FireFly>oh here I was expecting the linus torvalds "this is how I say linux" clip :p
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08:54:40<project10>http://www.paul.sladen.org/pronunciation/torvalds-says-linux.wav :)
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13:34:50<nulldata>https://youtu.be/QXUSvSUsx80
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21:44:07<nukke>gahnoo plus leenucks
21:44:08M--mlv|m joins
21:45:05<nukke>I wonder who's gonna pick up RMS' mantle once he passes away :( unfortunately none of the other free software advocates have as much charisma as he does
21:45:14<nukke>or memeability
21:46:32<joepie91|m>hot take: I don't think RMS has made a positive contribution to the FOSS movement for a long time, has in fact been contributing negatively to it for quite some time, and I don't think that his role is one to be replaced
21:48:20<joepie91|m>political personalities have a limited shelf life, a limited timespan in which their presence is helpful to a cause, and this is no different for RMS
21:48:28<joepie91|m>and, like most political personalities, that timespan has been well exceeded
21:49:16<nukke>man, that's a weird one to argue. I think RMS' role is a very immeasurable one. I genuinely think the positive effect he's had is that he's been a rock that's helped the open source "window" not move as much towards proprietary
21:50:08<nukke>I'll have to check through my logs but a couple of years ago I downloaded transcripts from talks from a variety of conferences, and RMS does get mentioned quite often
21:50:22<nukke>although I didn't grep for context, only for mentions of various topics (including RMS)
21:51:05<nukke>so maybe in the grand scheme of things he's been "irrelevant" but I think his contribution has been to simply keep the "status quo" if you will of the open source community
21:51:27<nukke>and, in a way, slowed down the acceleration of adoption of more restrictive licenses
21:51:32<joepie91|m>I should note that I am quite militant about FOSS myself, and that my comments are also from that perspective - it is not the intensity of the ideology that I have a problem with
21:52:03<joepie91|m>but lots of people are militant about FOSS, and have used that to contribute towards 'stabilizing that window'; and RMS is not just that, RMS has also had many other influences, many of them problematic, some of them directly contradicting this objective
21:52:35<joepie91|m>like, I think it's worth asking: why is the vast majority of software that people use, still proprietary? why has "open core" been adopted so widely, despite not being FOSS? why is the GPL being weaponized for proprietary ends?
21:53:04<nukke>as have many other figures. Linus, for example, has toned down his argumentative rhetoric in the mailing lists, and his overall role has been minimized in the past years
21:53:14<joepie91|m>sure, the "core FOSS proponents" have largely remained militant about the FOSS-ness of things, but that core has also been shrinking over the past couple years, and the movement has clearly failed to expand this to broader adoption of FOSS software and licensing
21:53:16<joepie91|m>exactly
21:53:26<nukke>but his influence is still there, although he is not outspoken in areas outside of software
21:53:55<joepie91|m>that is the key point, though; that influence is largely based on past work, not on his presence today
21:54:18<nukke>I mean, what is your proposal to those questions? in what way has RMS been a negative influence in FOSS?
21:54:29<thuban>i think rms is invaluable as a living demonstration of the possibility of living completely in accordance with one's principles
21:54:40<joepie91|m>as a political personality, he has outlived his purpose to the movement. and that is fine, and a normal part of any form of activism. but it's important not to get stuck in that
21:54:52<joepie91|m>to not just try and hold on to past achievements, but to look forward, adapt to changing circumstances, develop new strategies
21:55:10<nukke>how is that on him, though? I think it's up to other figures to take up THOSE roles
21:55:36<nukke>Linus simply stepped back, but I'm sure he still has some strong opinions. although he's leading a completely different (and still relevant) project
21:55:43<nukke>the SFC hasn't been relevant in a while it seems
21:55:48<nukke>they had a TON of momentum
21:55:56<joepie91|m>nukke: that same uncompromising militancy has also resulted in many people being *turned off* from FOSS. seeing it as a nerd hobby, something that can't be taken seriously. likewise, it has introduced a certain bias in people who get involved in FOSS communities; people who are similarly vocal and militant with little regard for other people's practical circumstances. this has severely harmed the FOSS movement and its adoption.
21:56:39<joepie91|m>like, it is true that RMS is a role model for many people; but not just on the FOSS part, also on the rest of his behaviours, which are decidedly less desirable
21:56:55<joepie91|m>one comes with the other
21:57:08<nukke>what? I disagree with "that same uncompromising militancy has also resulted in many people being *turned off* from FOSS."
21:57:18<nukke>that's legit propaganda from the other side.
21:57:46<nukke>it's like saying Bernie Sanders (or Corwin, or whoever in the other countries) has turned a lot of people away from leftwing politics
21:57:46<joepie91|m>I personally talk to people in that situation with high regularity.
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21:59:15<joepie91|m>it is not propaganda, it is the reality.
21:59:47<joepie91|m>are you familiar with the derogatory term "fossbro"?
22:00:34<nukke>oh trust me, I also talk to and work with developers that lean more to the open source side of things
22:00:50<nukke>I've honestly never heard that term, 'fossbro'
22:00:55<nukke>not even on 4chan
22:02:51<joepie91|m>it's a derivative of 'techbro'; it's a term that's used in some (primarily technical) circles to describe the kind of person who is unreasonably militant about FOSS software; notable examples include jumping into someone's mentions with "just use <barely functional FOSS program>" without bothering to ask what they actually need, or personally criticizing people for daring to use proprietary software with disregard for the reasons why. the
22:02:51<joepie91|m>term isn't really used outside of technical circles that I've seen, but people outside technical circles (when they are aware of FOSS) often describe the same tendencies with different words.
22:03:49<joepie91|m>a lot of people explicitly name fossbros as the reason that they do not get involved in FOSS communities, and do not want to use (certain) FOSS software
22:03:55<joepie91|m>this kind of behaviour is directly inherited from role models like RMS
22:04:47<nukke>maybe I'm just old at this point, but _what_ FOSS communities? even my local LUG is full of proprietary shills
22:04:52<nukke>it's fucking corporate BS
22:05:28<nukke>the FOSS communities I've found online are either unapologetically toxic on purpose (4chan) or open (FOSS projects)
22:06:02<nukke>I don't think I've ever in my life met more than two or three of these "fossbros" at once in person at a time, and they're usually easy to dismiss
22:06:55<nukke>and online, I personally don't use twitter or discord so I'm less exposed to toxic behavior like that, but I feel like if you as a potentially interested person in FOSS stumble upon those individuals, they're usually (based on my experience) few that it should be easy to just ignore and move on
22:07:05<joepie91|m>that kind of reinforces the point I'm trying to make here - your choices are pretty much either a) "community that takes into accounts your needs, but is way too friendly to corporate interests" or b) "community that is unapologetically FOSS and anti-corporate, but will completely ignore your needs", and this will continue being a problem as long as people try to emulate RMS
22:07:22<joepie91|m>there needs to be a c) "FOSS and anti-corporate, but respectful of personal circumstances and careful in its approach", and while that exists in some places, it is very rare because it tends to get drowned in RMS-esque rhetoric
22:07:38<nukke>but I just mentioned one that fits C
22:07:44<nukke>FOSS projects
22:07:49<joepie91|m>nukke: those "individuals" are *the* face of FOSS, to people who aren't deep into the topic
22:07:55<joepie91|m>this is what FOSS is to a lot of people
22:08:03<nukke>but again, WHERE are you encountering these individuals?
22:08:07<joepie91|m>FOSS projects are often full of fossbros as well
22:08:16<nukke>those "fossbros" are either on 4chan or those meme subs on reddit
22:08:33<joepie91|m>a better question is, where am I not?
22:08:34<joepie91|m>no, they are not
22:09:01<nukke>honest to goodness, I've encountered very few, and I've had commits to a handful of open source projects
22:09:15<nukke>it's the extreme exception to the rule of level-minded people
22:10:15<joepie91|m>if I'm being completely honest, I think you've encountered plenty, you just haven't recognized their behaviour for its problematicness because you're too close to their views yourself
22:10:33<joepie91|m>that is not something I can do anything about, I can only describe the phenomenon, and hope you will do something useful with it
22:11:38<nukke>perhaps. maybe my level of tolerance is different. I think it's also up to interpretation, where people might take suggestions as pushiness
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22:12:05<joepie91|m>that is certainly the cae
22:12:16<joepie91|m>case (
22:12:17<joepie91|m>gah. case*
22:12:18<joepie91|m>but the harsh reality is that if you are aiming for mass adoption, you will have to calibrate that for the interpretation of the recipient/listener, not for the interpretation of the speaker
22:12:25<joepie91|m>(this is true for activism in general)
22:13:25<joepie91|m>so it's not really a question of who is more 'right' in their interpretation, it's a much more practical question of "what presentation is necessary to achieve the goal" - which is not an easy question to answer, but nevertheless a very important one, and one that's important to keep asking in perpetuity as circumstances change
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22:18:54<thuban>every potential supporter (of any movement) is optimally targeted by a particular degree of (russell conjugation) conviction/stridency/militance; norms that turn one person off are accessible and agreeable to another. even conceding that there is some point on the laffer curve of assertion which maximizes total receptivity, it would be impossible to enforce messaging across
22:18:55<thuban>an entire community; why try to tear down subcommunities whose norms are 'counterproductive' _on average_ when you can allow each to attract the individuals to whom it most appeals? those that drive people off will be self-solving problems
22:25:25<joepie91|m>because they are not self-solving problems; as I stated earlier, they are the external face of FOSS to many people, and this makes things so much harder for anyone who's not part of the militant group. militant groups necessarily have louder voices than non-militant groups (that's kind of inherent to the concept), and this is useful especially in early stages, but it's also something where you need to know when to drop the militant
22:25:25<joepie91|m>aspect as your primary form of presentation
22:26:00<joepie91|m>people who are not themselves already part of the FOSS community do not see "militant FOSS people" and "reasonable FOSS people" as two separate categories; they just see "FOSS people", represented by the loud militant voices, and that's the end of it for them
22:26:32<joepie91|m>militancy has a place and time, but they are not "everywhere" and "forever"
22:27:29<joepie91|m>FOSS has long ago crossed the bridge of "being perceived as something that is even possible", which is the main thing that militancy contributed to
22:27:58<joepie91|m>at that point the focus should shift to "making it accessible to as many new participants as possible", and there the militancy is counterproductive
22:30:58<astrinaut>afternoon, nerds :)
22:31:17<astrinaut>thought id stop by and see how things are going
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22:58:41<thuban>i don't agree (a) with your assertion that more militance inherently means more visibility (palatability attracts more voices in total, as well as money and power--like microsoft, or the fabian society--with reach and privilege of its own), (b) that zeal is important only at the inception of a movement (and not, for example, as an ongoing check on corporate interests), (c)
22:58:43<thuban>that _if_ rms fans are counterproductive on average, then it would be good to try and quash them (because that would not actually be achievable anyway), or (d) that 'making [foss] accessible to as many participants as possible' is a singular goal which can be pursued by singular methods
22:58:53<thuban>many of the ideals proposed in repudiation of the old foss style are specifically intended to protect me and people like me, and yet i find them _incredibly alienating_, because--i'm an individual! let me do my thing
22:59:20<thuban>anyway, i don't think rms signifies (these days) as an _activist_ so much as an _example_. there is no replacement for people doing what they think is right even when it is very inconvenient. i don't choose to live like he does, but by god i'm glad that he shows that it's possible!
23:02:29<joepie91|m>I mean, I certainly welcome alternative hypotheses as to the cause, but one thing that is clearly visible to me is that FOSS has a serious adoption problem and that the fossbro attitude is a major factor in that (manifesting in many different ways, the two I mentioned above were not an exhaustive list)
23:03:08<joepie91|m>so any response that boils down to "I do not believe that there is a problem" is, well, really not actionable for me, and not something that useful discussion can be had about
23:04:53<joepie91|m>I do want to explicitly reject the association between outward militancy and "doing what they think is right"; these are not the same thing. I have lived in absolute poverty for 6+ years because all of the work available to me involved proprietary software development, and I continue to work tirelessly on FOSS adoption as a more-than-full-time job and have done so for 12 years by this point... and yet, you won't find me being outwardly
23:04:53<joepie91|m>militant in the way that RMS is, nor encouraging fossbro behaviour
23:05:33<joepie91|m>outward militancy simply is not a requirement for "living true to one's values"; that is a separate choice to make
23:15:29<thuban>i rather think that foss projects see limited (end-user) adoption because programmers writing code in their spare time will write programs that appeal primarily to themselves. developing and/or adapting software for less-technical audiences is not only actionable but probably easier than intra-community politicking
23:15:42<thuban>& but that is just my point! rms _isn't_ militant anymore; he travels around giving the same speech he's given for decades to people who already know what it's about. he is at this point basically a monk
23:19:27<joepie91|m>RMS himself might not be; but he continues to live on as a political figurehead, and continues to be put on a pedestal accordingly. this has the practical effect of still serving as a role model for other folks in FOSS communities, which has the consequences described above. I have often found this to actually be part of the cause for the whole "software not getting adapted for less-technical audiences" - because often that is rooted not
23:19:27<joepie91|m>just in "developers developing for themselves" (it occurs in explicitly public-facing projects too), but also in severely lacking UX, documentation, and so on. when this is brought up by end users, they then are met with commentary like "you should just learn to use it properly", because the perception is that the most important thing is to be using FOSS software, and any other needs or circumstances are subservient to that, and so it is a
23:19:27<joepie91|m>personal failing if one chooses to switch back to photoshop/windows/whatever instead of enduring with the FOSS thing that doesn't work for them
23:20:58<joepie91|m>most people, predictably, then go "fuck that shit" and switch back to the proprietary thing because there people will at least take criticisms and help them solve their issues within their needs
23:21:46<thuban>i don't think that's necessarily ideological so much as pragmatic. everyone knows that they _should_ write documentation; they don't because it's hard and boring
23:21:51<joepie91|m>this is not universally true for all FOSS software, of course, but I would say that it is overwhelmingly the case that there exists a dynamic like that, to some degree
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23:22:05<joepie91|m>I'm sure it's hard and boring; so is most activism. it's part of the job
23:22:54<joepie91|m>that's not to say that activism must always be super serious all of the time, but only doing the easy bits doesn't get shit done
23:23:21<joepie91|m>and even if you don't like doing it, that should still result in the conclusion of "I don't like this but they have a point", rather than the conclusion of "they are wrong for expecting this"
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23:23:32<mikolaj|m>joepie91 🏳️‍🌈: "fossbro" is a derogatory term for FOSS developers the speaker doesn't like or agree with. It's like "asshole", except that it extends its negative stereotypes on FOSS developers, and teaches listeners to disrespect them
23:23:54<joepie91|m>mikolaj♾️: I have zero interest in that sort of rhetoric
23:24:27<joepie91|m>please take your laundered cancel culture rhetoric elsewhere
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23:26:33<mikolaj|m>joepie91 🏳️‍🌈: i have no idea what "cancel culture" has to do with it. Just don't disparage your fellow FOSS developers, and instead criticize problems accurately
23:26:50<joepie91|m>I am not going to spend any more effort on your rhetoric
23:27:07<thuban>but hacking on foss projects is not inherently activism! is there no room for people who want to write code but aren't evangelists? is it not just a little presumptuous to tell people 'this free thing you made isn't packaged conveniently enough for me, that is hurtful'?
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23:27:29<joepie91|m>thuban: maybe another way to phrase what I mean: there's a subtle but important difference between "people will just have to adjust to FOSS" and "people will just have to adjust to what FOSS people think is right". and while I fully agree with the former, the latter is what RMS-esque ideology often boils down to, and it's what is doing much of the pragmatic harm
23:28:05<joepie91|m>thuban: FOSS itself (and by extension the free software movement) is, however, absolutely inherently activism
23:28:32<joepie91|m>that does not mean that everyone writing FOSS code is an activist, in that sense; but we're talking about those (wanting to) drive the movement forward, right? I would say that they are pretty clearly activists
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23:29:14<joepie91|m>(someone who is just writing code that happens to be FOSS, is unlikely to be taking RMS as a role model to begin with, so most likely out of scope of this topic)
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23:44:16<mikolaj|m>There's a lot of conservative people around who prefer solutions they're used to. There's also a lot of people who like to develop software only for other developers. There's also people who use software for elitism, and there's people who are too tied to some founder figures
23:51:24<mikolaj|m>Understandably, activist-minded people tend to clash with these, and that's why there's so much frustration around RMS and many other FOSS things lately
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23:57:44<pabs>nukke: the SFC is probably the only/primary relevant FLOSS org these days. if they win their lawsuit against Vizio, it will set trends in FLOSS license compliance for decades to come
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