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| 02:52:35 | <kiska> | Whooho! 9pm til 5am curfew for us https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXAAmo_r7W0 |
| 03:02:15 | <flashfire42> | Good Luck Kiska shit has been getting bad. I got my vaccination |
| 03:02:49 | <kiska> | My jab is on Sunday |
| 03:15:35 | <heart> | I'm scared to get the vaccine but I have to get it to be allowed to go back to college :'( |
| 03:19:38 | <Frogging101> | don't be scared |
| 03:19:40 | <Frogging101> | be bravwe |
| 03:19:43 | <Frogging101> | brave* |
| 03:23:14 | <heart> | I'm the most squeamish about the "arm hurt" after the vaccine lmao |
| 03:23:49 | <heart> | Its probably not too bad, but i'm a wimp |
| 03:33:27 | <Jake> | I got the vaccine, twice, and it was fine! barely a pinch, don't worry. |
| 03:36:30 | <heart> | How was it in the hours/days afterwards? |
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| 03:41:40 | <Craigle> | I have the double jab as well. Not bad at all, and no real side effects. No soreness from the first shot, some MILD soreness after the second, but it felt like a bruise at worst. Soreness was WAY less than when I got the Pneumovax shot. That one hurt like a sonofabitch. |
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| 03:46:50 | <@hook54321> | heart: it partially depends on which shot you get |
| 03:49:37 | <Jake> | yeah what hook said. I got Pfizer, it wasn't great 12 hours to a day after both (second one being a bit worse), but it was way better than getting the actual virus. |
| 03:51:14 | <heart> | oh man, i had the pneumovax23 vaccine few years ago and it hurt me the entire day. I went straight to bed right after getting home and woke up still sore lmao. Anything beats that. |
| 03:51:42 | <Doranwen> | you're fortunate - my mom's coworker developed six allergies to major food items, multiple other autoimmune issues… directly after getting her first shot (I don't think she went back for a second due to the complications, but I'd have to ask my mom for details) - she's still dealing with the aftereffects months and months later, wishes she never had gotten it |
| 03:51:56 | <Doranwen> | others I know were fine, but if you're the unlucky one… |
| 03:52:06 | <heart> | I have a choice between taking Pfizer and Moderna. I think I'll be getting the Moderna one, I heard it's better. |
| 03:52:30 | | Doranwen is in an age/health bracket that her chance of having severe covid is lower than getting side effects from the shots, so she's not going to |
| 03:53:29 | <Doranwen> | but I wish everyone who does a good experience with no major side effects |
| 03:53:58 | <Craigle> | I got Moderna, and my wife got Pfizer. Neither of us had any reactions. Maybe a mild headache and fatigue, but honestly, that could be any day for either of us. |
| 03:54:34 | <Craigle> | And yeah, same for Pneumovax. Felt like shit that afternoon, and slept through dinner until the next day |
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| 03:57:24 | <@hook54321> | heart: iirc there's studies that showed that it's a little bit more effective against some of the newer variants. i've heard there's oftentimes more/"worse" side effects after, but i'm sure it's not worse than getting covid. most people only get temporary/non-life threatening effects from the shots. people that are allergic to PEG have to get something like Johnson and Johnson. |
| 03:57:30 | <heart> | Sorry to hear about your mom's coworker, Doranwen, hope she feels better soon :( Which vaccine was it, if you don't mind me asking? |
| 03:58:24 | <Doranwen> | my mom said it was Moderna |
| 03:59:45 | <heart> | hook: I don't think I'll have side effects because I'm young (21 years old) and relatively healthy except for asthma, but still, you never know :I |
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| 04:00:53 | <heart> | Also Johnson&Johnson vaccine isn't available here, only Pfizer, moderna, and Astrazeneca (I won't take astrazeneca because of the reports of blood clots) |
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| 04:02:42 | <@hook54321> | for covid, even younger people can get serious effects. i don't want to risk it myself. even if i feel awful after the vaccine i'd rather have that than covid. |
| 04:03:11 | <Doranwen> | I think everyone should have that right to choose for themselves. |
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| 04:05:04 | <heart> | That's true, covid is much worse than any vaccine. |
| 04:05:19 | <Doranwen> | I trust my body's immune system, plus there are several good treatments out there that are seeing great success - we know some people personally who've treated several hundred patients and had not one even go to the hospital, even older people or with comorbidities |
| 04:05:30 | <Doranwen> | so our family's chosen to boost the immune system |
| 04:05:52 | <Doranwen> | since natural immunity is stronger than what a vaccine can provide |
| 04:07:20 | <heart> | I'm scared of getting covid because I have asthma, and I don't know if I even have any natural immunity lol |
| 04:07:29 | <Doranwen> | a vaccine doesn't deal well with mutations of a virus - which is why the flu vaccine (another respiratory virus) has to be redone every year - but natural immunity will |
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| 04:07:59 | <@hook54321> | immunity after getting it wears off some over time too |
| 04:08:01 | <Doranwen> | Vitamin C, Vitamin D, and especially with covid, they're finding quercitin and zinc combined have a strong effect early on |
| 04:08:05 | <heart> | That's why I'm choosing to get the vaccine (even though I'm scarerd lmao) |
| 04:08:24 | <Doranwen> | it can, but they tested people who had SARS and well over a decade later, their immune response to it was still strong |
| 04:08:45 | <Doranwen> | SARS shares all but maybe 20% of its genetic material with COVID, so they'll behave similarly |
| 04:09:33 | <Doranwen> | as far as immune response, at least |
| 04:10:01 | <heart> | Maybe so, but there's been people who had COVID twice. The immune response seems to be small. |
| 04:10:01 | <Doranwen> | the key is if you feel even the slightest bit sick, treat aggressively |
| 04:10:17 | <Doranwen> | don't let it get to where you need to go to the hospital |
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| 06:35:04 | <spirit> | lol |
| 06:36:17 | <spirit> | oh god |
| 06:36:19 | <spirit> | reading up |
| 06:36:33 | <spirit> | it's worse on the second look even |
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| 06:44:42 | <knecht420> | "don't let it get to where you need to go to the hospital" yeah okay ima just stop having covid before that point |
| 06:44:50 | <Doranwen> | that's kind of impossible |
| 06:45:17 | <Doranwen> | yeah, you get vaccinated, you might not get the main one, but then there are variants and the vaccines are *nowhere* near as effective there |
| 06:45:21 | <Doranwen> | and it'll mutate again |
| 06:45:25 | <Doranwen> | just like the flu and colds |
| 06:45:52 | <Doranwen> | there's a reason people who want to be vaccinated against the flu have to get a shot every year, and even then they have to hope the version the vaccine makers picked matched the one that became prevalent |
| 06:45:59 | <Doranwen> | covid behaves similarly |
| 06:46:07 | <Doranwen> | and it's got animal reservoirs |
| 06:46:22 | <Doranwen> | eventually everyone will have gotten covid at some point, most likely, or else developed antibodies against it |
| 06:46:42 | <Doranwen> | much like pretty much everyone gets a cold at some point, or has gotten the flu unless they have a strong immune system to fight it off |
| 06:47:05 | <Doranwen> | it's impossible to say "we're going to get rid of covid" |
| 06:47:23 | <Doranwen> | and it's impossible to be 100% certain you'll never get it, no matter how much you get vaccinated |
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| 07:02:49 | <spirit> | i'd suggest you stop treating whatever misguided social media sources you follow to be medical experts |
| 07:03:32 | <Doranwen> | I don't follow any social media |
| 07:03:36 | <spirit> | because you just sound like $random_antivaxxer_3000 and your arguments have very little substance |
| 07:03:47 | <Doranwen> | and the people I've listened to are trained doctors and immunologists |
| 07:03:50 | <spirit> | lol |
| 07:04:20 | <Doranwen> | I don't have FB, Twitter, Instagram, or anything else like that, nor do I bother looking at them |
| 07:04:33 | <Doranwen> | waste of time |
| 07:04:56 | <knecht420> | i only trust people writing 500 word essays in offtopic IRC channels for my medical advice |
| 07:06:10 | <Doranwen> | hey, you can do what you want to do |
| 07:06:19 | <Doranwen> | but I do recommend researching rather than just taking the media's word for things |
| 07:06:38 | <spirit> | i suggest you ask some other doctors, ones new to you, about the common and potential "side-effects" of covid then. a bit of critical thinking and weighing different sources is good, right? |
| 07:06:46 | <Doranwen> | I've seen enough personal evidence of them not telling the full story (or outright lies over things) that I'm skeptical of most stuff |
| 07:06:52 | <spirit> | ding ding ding we have "the [mainstream] media" |
| 07:06:52 | <Doranwen> | I've read of the potential side effects of covid |
| 07:06:57 | <spirit> | beep boop i am a bot |
| 07:07:02 | <Doranwen> | heh, I don't watch ANY media |
| 07:07:04 | <Doranwen> | that's just the terminology |
| 07:07:05 | <spirit> | wow |
| 07:07:08 | <knecht420> | "long covid" is the keyword |
| 07:07:31 | <Doranwen> | it used to be called post-viral syndrome before covid came along, there ARE treatments for that too |
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| 07:07:37 | <spirit> | then you are an outsider to common culture and common sense, without any hold in the real world |
| 07:07:52 | <Doranwen> | why are you bothering to argue with me if you disagree? |
| 07:07:58 | <Doranwen> | I believe everyone has the right to make up their own mind |
| 07:08:03 | <spirit> | because you are spreading idiotic nonsense |
| 07:08:12 | <spirit> | yes, you have the freedom for that |
| 07:08:13 | <Doranwen> | and there come the insults |
| 07:08:16 | <Doranwen> | I did not insult you |
| 07:08:24 | <Doranwen> | you can say "I disagree, let's not discuss it" |
| 07:08:25 | <Doranwen> | and that's fine |
| 07:08:41 | <spirit> | i can also say that what you say is bullshit |
| 07:08:43 | <spirit> | and that's fine |
| 07:08:47 | <Doranwen> | but insulting someone because they are saying something you think is false is just plain rude |
| 07:08:50 | <Doranwen> | we can still be polite |
| 07:09:41 | <spirit> | i don't know you, you are a name on the internet spreading sad misinformation, i have no empathy for that. the end |
| 07:09:58 | <Doranwen> | misinformation = censoring anything someone doesn't agree with |
| 07:10:13 | <Doranwen> | maybe it's false, maybe it's not |
| 07:10:22 | <Doranwen> | but as soon as it disagrees with the party line, it's immediately ignored |
| 07:11:08 | <Doranwen> | I think it's interesting that someone can want to archive stuff but be ready to ignore every bit of information that doesn't agree with what they already believe |
| 07:12:19 | <Doranwen> | I don't accept everything I hear - but when I hear dozens and dozens of different people, unrelated, no connection, who are all trained doctors, scientists, etc., saying something contrary to what the media says, I have to wonder why they are willing to risk their reputations rather than just keep quiet, and I'm willing to hear what they have to say |
| 07:12:46 | <Doranwen> | I don't believe I know the whole story, but I do think it's important to listen to more than one side of things |
| 07:12:57 | <Doranwen> | and not just dismiss everyone who disagrees |
| 07:15:10 | <Doranwen> | also, is this scientific enough for you? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8248252/ |
| 07:15:56 | <Doranwen> | they're finding that deals with "long covid" too |
| 07:17:39 | <Doranwen> | I'd rather take my chances with that than over a vaccine that (this is a fact, you can look it up) has thousands of reported deaths in vaccine reporting databases, but I support the right of people to choose which medical treatment they prefer, and expect them to do the same for me |
| 07:20:56 | | Doranwen should also note she is not anti-vaccines in general and got all of her childhood ones |
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| 13:38:11 | <@hook54321> | just because it's reported doesn't mean it's caused by the vaccine. it's there so they can monitor potential side effects. |
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| 13:48:24 | <@JAA> | Guess what, if you give a vaccine to hundreds of millions of people in a few months, some will die shortly after the vaccination simply due to chance. |
| 13:48:41 | <@JAA> | Good old correlation vs causation. |
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| 14:34:52 | <@HCross> | Guess also what, millions of people cross the road every day. Some of them get hit by cars |
| 14:35:31 | <@HCross> | Are we going to make crossing the road illegal, because some people get hit by cars? |
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| 14:58:18 | <Doranwen> | looking at the actual numbers - the VAERS database had only a few dozen *per year*… comes 2021 and now there are over *12,000*, about as many or even more in one year as were reported all the years up to then - I think that warrants a closer look |
| 14:58:22 | <spirit> | vaccine reporting databases are free for all |
| 14:58:31 | <Doranwen> | yeah, and they're widely underreported |
| 14:58:42 | <spirit> | citation please |
| 14:58:48 | <Doranwen> | I can find that, give me a moment |
| 15:03:38 | <Doranwen> | https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/dataguide.html - on the site itself: "The term, underreporting refers to the fact that VAERS receives reports for only a small fraction of actual adverse events. The degree of underreporting varies widely." |
| 15:04:26 | <Doranwen> | there was a study on an actual journal I'd read the other day (from pre-covid era, about underreporting in general) but I didn't save the link, been trying to re-find it again but might take a bit longer |
| 15:04:40 | <spirit> | did you realise that the paper you linked above highlights the very real mortal dangers of covid? |
| 15:05:10 | <spirit> | you said that deaths from vaccination are widely underreported |
| 15:05:37 | <Doranwen> | I did not, actually |
| 15:05:43 | <@JAA> | 'The degree of underreporting varies widely.' |
| 15:05:44 | <Doranwen> | I said there were thousands of *reported* deaths |
| 15:05:54 | <Doranwen> | that is a fact |
| 15:06:00 | <Doranwen> | we don't know how much was underreported |
| 15:06:05 | <Doranwen> | some have quoted numbers here and there |
| 15:06:43 | <spirit> | did they die "by" the vaccination or "with" the vaccination? i mean, i am sure you know this common strategy of arguing about covid ;) |
| 15:06:53 | <@JAA> | From what I've heard, a lot more reports are being made with the COVID-19 vaccines. Not because there are more effects, but because there's more attention on it. |
| 15:07:05 | <@JAA> | I.e. less underreporting compared to pre-COVID. |
| 15:07:10 | <spirit> | and do you realise that anti-vaxxers deliberately game those databases? |
| 15:07:35 | <spirit> | you have to approach data like this with two perspectives |
| 15:07:57 | <spirit> | obviously not every case of something will be reported, so you will have underreporting of *actual* events |
| 15:07:59 | <Doranwen> | from what I've heard, it takes considerable time to fill out one of those forms, and you have to put in all kinds of personal info in for confirmation purposes (whether they do or not, that I don't know) |
| 15:08:06 | <Doranwen> | yes, I know, you can't say for sure one way or another |
| 15:08:31 | <spirit> | but you can not jump to any conclusions from what is being reported, especially on topics where people go into a mode of infowar and misinformation |
| 15:08:35 | <Doranwen> | the thing is, even if only 1000 of the 12,000 reports in VAERS (and I'm not getting into the European or UK databases here) were true… it means there needs to be a good look at it |
| 15:08:39 | <Doranwen> | and open discussion |
| 15:08:54 | <@JAA> | There hasn't been a single credible report of a death caused by a vaccine as far as I know. |
| 15:08:57 | <Doranwen> | not just censorship and "misinformation!" at the slightest contradiction |
| 15:09:00 | <@JAA> | These cases *are* being looked at very closely. |
| 15:09:04 | <spirit> | you can rest assured that there is serious medical oversight for vaccines |
| 15:09:22 | <spirit> | there is endless talk about this in the open |
| 15:09:27 | <@JAA> | Hell, J&J vaccination was stopped in several countries after the report of like 2 or 3 cases of thrombosis (which turns out to be real but incredibly rare). |
| 15:09:49 | <@JAA> | Not thousands in one country, a couple across the entire world. |
| 15:09:53 | <Doranwen> | bbiab, have a real life thing to deal with |
| 15:10:14 | <knecht420> | whole EU stopped AZ because of a serious complication in afew hundred out of millions, this thing is being looked at more than most other things lol |
| 15:10:33 | <Doranwen> | back |
| 15:10:49 | <Doranwen> | hey, I totally support people's rights to take any treatment they want to |
| 15:10:58 | <Doranwen> | but here it's being *forced* on people |
| 15:11:05 | <Doranwen> | take it or lose jobs, etc. |
| 15:11:41 | <spirit> | there is a super interesting article (german) about pandemrix (the swine flue vaccine which antivaxxers use to say that fast developed vaccines are dangerous and that there will be longterm problems with them). turns narcolepsy was actually also caused by swine flu. taadaaaa! |
| 15:11:58 | <spirit> | vaccine requirements are nothing new |
| 15:13:28 | <Doranwen> | no, but they've been limited to schools, and people could always choose alternatives before - requiring someone to get a medical treatment that they don't want means they're no longer actually consenting - you can't have consent if you have coercion |
| 15:13:51 | <Doranwen> | (and some medical workers, I believe - flu vaccine and stuff - but those did not use mRNA technology) |
| 15:13:52 | <@JAA> | What are your thoughts on lorry drivers having to wear a seatbelt or losing their job? |
| 15:14:00 | <Doranwen> | not a problem - it's not a treatment |
| 15:14:08 | <Doranwen> | you take the seatbelt off, you haven't permanently affected your body |
| 15:14:09 | <Doranwen> | it's temporary |
| 15:14:15 | <Doranwen> | you can't undo these injections |
| 15:14:24 | <spirit> | even in the US there is mandatory vaccination for some things for school children |
| 15:14:26 | <Doranwen> | and they don't know the long-term effects yet |
| 15:14:30 | <spirit> | ah |
| 15:14:31 | <spirit> | but they do |
| 15:14:32 | <Doranwen> | yes, but those have been tested over years |
| 15:14:36 | <spirit> | what do you think long-term effects are |
| 15:14:41 | <Doranwen> | you can't know long-term effects without waiting years to find out |
| 15:14:42 | <spirit> | and when they appear? |
| 15:14:48 | <knecht420> | oh man these fucking long term effects, look at the long term effects of covid |
| 15:14:49 | <Doranwen> | you're asking me to speculate? |
| 15:14:53 | <knecht420> | people out for months |
| 15:15:19 | <spirit> | can you find any vaccine where long-term effects did appear after more months than the covid vaccines have been administered to millions of people right now? |
| 15:15:23 | <@JAA> | mRNA degrades very rapidly, and the remainder of the vaccines is harmless. (I've only looked into mRNA vaccines, so this obviously doesn't apply to others.) |
| 15:15:45 | <Doranwen> | yeah, and a doctor I would consider quite reputable reported one of her top ER nurses got the shot, immediately had violent shaking for hours - and it's still happening every other day, she hasn't been able to work for months either |
| 15:15:50 | <@JAA> | Harmless as in, the body will quickly disassemble it. |
| 15:16:01 | <Doranwen> | even if those are few numbers, people need to be able to make that choice for themselves, whether to take that risk or not |
| 15:16:08 | <spirit> | correlation != causation and many of those examples are fake |
| 15:16:39 | <Doranwen> | this one I would venture to say is not, because this doctor is vouched for by someone I know does his homework carefully |
| 15:16:42 | <spirit> | but really, if you worry about hidden longterm effects, look at the entire history of vaccination and see if you find anything |
| 15:16:47 | <knecht420> | my wife's boyfriend's nephew's PE teacher who is very reputable also had serious adverse effects |
| 15:17:12 | <Doranwen> | and of course it isn't causation, but having a severe reaction within 10 minutes of the shot, in an otherwise healthy individual… |
| 15:17:12 | <spirit> | knecht420: was it on a monday after the morning coffee? |
| 15:17:21 | <@JAA> | Sure, you have the right to endanger yourself. Just don't interact with any people until the end of the pandemic then because you have no right to endanger others. |
| 15:17:32 | <spirit> | ... is an anecdote and will happen to thousands of people at the scale of this pandemic |
| 15:17:44 | <spirit> | statistics are fun |
| 15:17:48 | <Doranwen> | and vaccinated people can't spread the disease on? |
| 15:17:59 | <knecht420> | spirit: it was full moon second virgo cycle in a leap year so that's probably to be taken into account :) |
| 15:18:01 | <spirit> | i wonder how many people died right in the moment the syringe went in |
| 15:18:05 | <spirit> | oh virgo! |
| 15:18:16 | <@JAA> | They can, but less so than unvaccinated people. It's another measure that reduces the spread, just like masks, social distancing, etc. |
| 15:18:22 | <spirit> | Doranwen: seriously, longterm effects, go research and report back :) |
| 15:18:25 | <spirit> | dont let your mind wander |
| 15:18:36 | <spirit> | find proof for every thing that worries you |
| 15:18:41 | <spirit> | i am out for now |
| 15:18:45 | <Doranwen> | I actually am not worried, other than forced injections |
| 15:18:53 | <@JAA> | I'd rather have any alleged long-term effects from the vaccine than the known long-term effects from infections. |
| 15:18:58 | <knecht420> | also spreading covid is no longer the main issues if hospitalizations are down, which they are in vaccined people. full hospitals was the main problem. |
| 15:19:00 | <Doranwen> | that's fine, I support your right to choose |
| 15:20:33 | <Doranwen> | and my area has definitely *not* been hit much at all, very very few cases overall, and low low low hospitalization numbers |
| 15:20:34 | <@JAA> | By the way, the treatments when you do have a serious case of COVID-19 all suck massively. |
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| 15:21:37 | <Doranwen> | I'd just ask the family friend we have who's a recently-retired ER doc - he got it in March 2020 and was in the ICU, because back then they didn't have a clue what you *could* do |
| 15:21:52 | <Doranwen> | survived it and did massive research on anything that could help, and has a lot of good recommendations |
| 15:23:35 | <knecht420> | i mean just look at some of the side effects: https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-05-covid-penile-tissue-contribute-ed.html (obvious man-problem but just taken as an example for pretty outlandish long term effects that have a huge impact on life quality, asides from common taste/smell loss etc.) |
| 15:23:50 | <knecht420> | ^seven months after infection |
| 15:24:33 | <knecht420> | i rather take the possible three day knock-out from vaccine, thanks |
| 15:25:47 | <Doranwen> | that's fine, your body, your choice |
| 15:25:57 | <@JAA> | Well yeah, the treatments are improving somewhat, but they're still mostly 'we can somewhat mitigate the symptoms' rather than 'here's how to fix the disease'. |
| 15:26:39 | <@JAA> | The main recommendation by the vast majority of medical personnel is to get the vaccine since that (with high probability) prevents a serious case in the first place should you get infected. |
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| 15:26:57 | <Doranwen> | until it mutates enough that that vaccine doesn't work anymore |
| 15:27:25 | <knecht420> | then we get the refresher shot :) |
| 15:27:53 | <Doranwen> | I'll take my chances with my body's rather strong immune system, plus boosting it with a number of things |
| 15:28:11 | <Doranwen> | ten years later, we can compare notes and see how it all turned out |
| 15:28:26 | <@JAA> | I'd rather not have this shit go on for a decade. |
| 15:28:32 | <Doranwen> | oh, I wasn't inferring that |
| 15:28:58 | <Doranwen> | just that by then we ought to know how well each approach worked - if both did, if one failed, etc. |
| 15:29:47 | <Doranwen> | I'm sure you think mine will fail utterly, though I actually hope both work because I'd rather *not* see people suffer severe side effects or worse reactions to the disease or anything that people have predicted |
| 15:30:17 | <knecht420> | very noble approach |
| 15:30:55 | <knecht420> | but i'd rather have this over asap |
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| 15:31:22 | <Doranwen> | but I'm willing to keep an eye on what everyone is saying, because this is the first time I think I've seen that the "alternative view" has so many unrelated unconnected people who are not overtly crackpots or uneducated individuals all saying similar things that contradict what the media does, so it makes me more willing to at least hear them out |
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| 15:31:51 | <Doranwen> | yeah, I'd love it to be over, but I'm suspecting the only way is for it to mutate enough that it becomes weaker and more like the ordinary flu we dodge every year |
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| 15:32:06 | <Doranwen> | we'll have to see |
| 15:32:27 | <knecht420> | keep in mind that this is also arguably one of the most impactful global events of the last decades so you're bound to have a lot of people being very opinionated |
| 15:32:39 | <Doranwen> | oh yes, of course, but we *ought* to be able to be civil in our discussions |
| 15:33:00 | <Doranwen> | we can disagree strongly, but we all come from the same place - we want everyone to be healthy and able to pursue their life goals |
| 15:33:22 | <spirit> | you really shouldn't be scared of vaccination and don't instill fear of it in others |
| 15:33:28 | <Doranwen> | I'm not scared of vaccination in general |
| 15:33:33 | <spirit> | and you really ought to stop saying "the media" as if it was a thing |
| 15:33:42 | <knecht420> | and yet you're spreading misinformation and are fear mongering |
| 15:34:18 | <Doranwen> | but I do not trust the mRNA technology because I don't think they've worked out all the kinks regarding side effects |
| 15:34:36 | <Doranwen> | well, they do seem to be in general all saying one thing regarding the vaccines |
| 15:34:56 | <Doranwen> | does it not make sense to refer to them as a collective if they are saying the same thing? |
| 15:35:15 | <spirit> | the status quo? the scientic and medical consensus? the common sense? |
| 15:35:19 | <spirit> | they aren't even doing that |
| 15:35:49 | <knecht420> | would you say "they" have an agenda? |
| 15:35:54 | <Doranwen> | I couldn't know |
| 15:35:59 | <Doranwen> | that's not something I would be able to know or not |
| 15:35:59 | <spirit> | there are many many different voices, opinions, sides, discussions, every day everywhere in various publications, senders, shows etc |
| 15:36:21 | <Doranwen> | that's for the people who want to discuss conspiracy theories |
| 15:36:34 | <knecht420> | you got the hint |
| 15:36:37 | <spirit> | heh |
| 15:36:41 | <Doranwen> | that's why I don't talk about agendas |
| 15:36:47 | <Doranwen> | because it's not possible to know if there is or not |
| 15:36:53 | <Doranwen> | by definition, if there was, we wouldn't know it |
| 15:37:00 | <Doranwen> | so it's a useless waste of time |
| 15:37:30 | <Doranwen> | what I do see is that there's a ban on anything that doesn't agree with whatever someone has decided is correct information, when it'd be better to have open debates and free exchange of information |
| 15:37:43 | <knecht420> | alright doc called, gotta go to get my shot against arguing with strangers on the internet |
| 15:37:48 | <Doranwen> | the truth eventually comes out of all of that |
| 15:38:07 | <spirit> | what's the agenda of people who spread anecdotes about people who "got the shot, immediately had violent shaking for hours - and it's still happening every other day, she hasn't been able to work for months either"? |
| 15:38:17 | <spirit> | there is no ban |
| 15:38:34 | <spirit> | as i just said, that is a huge and wide discussion everywhere |
| 15:38:48 | <Doranwen> | you're saying Facebook won't flag your post as not meeting community standards if you did that? |
| 15:39:00 | <Doranwen> | or Youtube won't censor the video as misinformation? |
| 15:39:20 | <Doranwen> | I'm not sure if it would or wouldn't, but I know people personally who have tried to discuss things honestly and openly and experienced censorship on those platforms due to it |
| 15:39:24 | <spirit> | if something is misinformation, i mean, what actually is your point here? |
| 15:39:36 | <Doranwen> | my point is that it makes no sense to cry "misinformation!" |
| 15:39:46 | <spirit> | oh it sadly very often does |
| 15:39:57 | <spirit> | and it's important |
| 15:40:19 | <spirit> | because otherwise you end up with people scared of safe medical procedures or supposed censorship |
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| 15:41:54 | <Doranwen> | then you either prove them wrong or say you don't want to discuss it |
| 15:42:25 | <Doranwen> | but "misinformation" too often ends up being a code word for "don't listen to this person" without bothering to do anything else |
| 15:43:03 | <spirit> | proving misinformation wrong is usually a fight against windmills, because you get into a tornado of "but this" and "and that" |
| 15:43:07 | <Doranwen> | similarly to how now in some circles all you have to do is call someone a racist and no one has to look at whether they are or not, they're automatically not listened to |
| 15:43:21 | <spirit> | instead, they have to first prove it right by a reasonable standard |
| 15:43:23 | <Doranwen> | then you just say "I'd rather not discuss that, because I disagree" |
| 15:43:58 | <Doranwen> | since you said the information is so clear out there on your side, it wouldn't be hard for anyone to figure out I was wrong if they did look, right? |
| 15:44:10 | <spirit> | like, longterm effects of vaccination, you said it is a danger but i have not seen any reasonable proof of that |
| 15:44:51 | <Doranwen> | I said I think it might be, and I'm willing to wait till I see the vaccine have the same number of years of safety studying that standard ones do before I'd consider taking one, especially one that doesn't work like a normal vaccine does |
| 15:44:54 | <spirit> | misinformation keeps bending the truth and moving the goalposts |
| 15:45:24 | <Doranwen> | I did not say it *is* a danger at all, because I don't know for sure - we just don't know it *isn't* |
| 15:45:33 | <spirit> | is any vaccine that ever had effects years after administration? |
| 15:45:39 | <Doranwen> | because you can't know long-term when there hasn't *been* a long-term |
| 15:45:47 | <Doranwen> | has there ever been an mRNA vaccine before? |
| 15:45:55 | <spirit> | there are other vaccines |
| 15:46:03 | <spirit> | non-mrna |
| 15:46:06 | <spirit> | so that is no issue |
| 15:46:11 | <Doranwen> | no, those work rather different |
| 15:46:18 | <spirit> | and mrna vaccines have been studied for decades |
| 15:46:22 | <Doranwen> | this is more like gene therapy than vaccine |
| 15:46:33 | <spirit> | DING DING DING captain misinformation |
| 15:46:44 | <Doranwen> | yeah, and they had trouble with side effects which is why it never actually turned into vaccines until now |
| 15:46:48 | | Doranwen rolls eyes |
| 15:46:56 | <Doranwen> | it tells your body to produce something it wouldn't normally produce |
| 15:47:00 | <Doranwen> | I didn't say it *was* gene therapy |
| 15:47:02 | <spirit> | stop |
| 15:47:06 | <spirit> | back to before mrna |
| 15:47:07 | <Doranwen> | I said it was closer to that than a standard vaccine |
| 15:47:16 | <spirit> | mrna is just one type of available vaccine |
| 15:47:23 | <spirit> | there are others, so let's focus on that |
| 15:47:44 | <Doranwen> | here in the US, there's only the mRNA types that I know of, no one's talked about any others being available here |
| 15:48:11 | <spirit> | have you heard of AstraZeneca or Johnson&Johnson? |
| 15:48:23 | <Doranwen> | yes, but around here the options are Pfizer or Moderna |
| 15:56:59 | <Doranwen> | anyway, we obviously don't need to continue discussion - you disagree with me on several things, and I'd rather keep things civil and focus on archival here anyway |
| 15:57:34 | <spirit> | aye! |
| 15:58:48 | | Doranwen is still trying to get Yahoo Groups data organized better to upload and having fun with the encoding :P |
| 16:32:19 | <Frogging101> | Doranwen: I find your claim about boosting your immune system interesting. What methodology do you use to do this? As far as I know, there are no proven "immune boosting" substances. One can keep it performing optimally by being well fed, rested, and hydrated. But boosting it? |
| 16:57:20 | <Doranwen> | I probably am not using the correct terminology |
| 16:59:30 | <Doranwen> | mostly a lot of natural things everyone should be doing - I drink lots of water, try to get fresh air and some exercise, eat very limited amounts of sugar (since that depresses immune function), eat garlic and probiotics (we're also vegetarian, so no meats), make sure Vitamin C and D levels are optimal, but I also take zinc and I think currently NaC - we've done Quercitin as well and will probably resume as that works with zinc |
| 16:59:42 | <Doranwen> | getting adequate sleep is the one area I struggle with as I tend to stay up late, but I'm working on that too |
| 17:00:30 | | Doranwen has not been sick at all for several years, and the only times she's ever had the flu was when she was operating with very low levels of sleep for days on end and then exposed to tons of germs |
| 17:02:28 | <Doranwen> | we have a garden and get lots of vegetables straight from there to add in our diet |
| 17:04:00 | | Doranwen has to head off to get some projects done afk |
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| 18:22:48 | <@JAA> | https://xkcd.com/2425/ |
| 18:24:01 | <Frogging101> | love that comic |
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| 22:40:53 | <kiska> | Hrm... would I rather vaccine OR lockdown to continue... |
| 22:42:36 | <kiska> | Oh and the best thing about this is... we will have a 9pm til 5am curfew https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-20/nsw-new-covid-restrictions-and-lockdown-explained/100393204 |
| 22:42:49 | <kiska> | Imposed on us from 23rd Aug |
| 22:44:15 | <kiska> | Trying to see why my booking was cancelled :D https://server8.kiska.pw/uploads/56a30c9069e9aa45/20210818-145627-1800571155%40sip.myrepublic.com.au-outgoing.wav |
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