| 00:00:48 | <@OrIdow6> | "Freenode is IRC" |
| 00:00:58 | <@OrIdow6> | Like how they spelled June as Juen |
| 00:01:33 | <@OrIdow6> | Freenode, I am fine burning down, the rest of IRC, not so much |
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| 01:23:01 | <Wayward> | I think he meant "Freenode is only an IRC network now. It's not a structured foundation and none of this stuff is relevant anymore." |
| 01:23:11 | <Wayward> | But English is his second language. |
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| 03:18:00 | <@OrIdow6> | Wayward: Oh, that makes it make more sense |
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| 14:58:38 | <TheTechRobo> | What's the best cost-effective way to archive microfilm/microfiche? |
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| 21:30:10 | <rbraun> | anyone know what's up with wayback? i'm getting 503s all over the place |
| 21:31:30 | <@JAA> | rbraun: Something about a switch going kaput, apparently. |
| 21:31:46 | <rbraun> | aha |
| 21:31:57 | <rbraun> | i was worried since they hadn't tweeted about it |
| 21:34:24 | <@JAA> | Today's freenode drama: following a heated discussion on #python because people asking questions were being told to go to Libera instead, the channel was force-closed by staff. |
| 21:37:44 | <@JAA> | Something about channels moving being 'an existential attack on' freenode and stuff. |
| 21:39:10 | <rbraun> | and then several people were kickbanned and/or k-lined for asking about it in #freenode |
| 21:39:15 | <Wayward> | seems accurate. people don't "own" channels. every project has a freenode channel, whether project royalty wants one or not. Every project has 100 forks and 100 project leads, any of whom can take up residency. |
| 21:39:29 | <rbraun> | Prince Andrew Lee is now irc-ing as "root" too |
| 21:39:34 | <rbraun> | username and nickname root |
| 21:39:41 | <rbraun> | and seems to think that makes his dick bigger |
| 21:39:42 | <Wayward> | It's like council housing |
| 21:39:53 | <@JAA> | Have you tried connecting with SASL and password toor? |
| 21:40:11 | <rbraun> | Wayward: it's arguable that people can claim a generic channel name if the original people abandoned it, like say #css |
| 21:40:16 | <rbraun> | but project names usually change when they are forked |
| 21:40:38 | <rbraun> | and the actual actions here aren't about "letting people use the channel again", they are about censoring any signpost saying the original people moved off-network |
| 21:40:57 | <Wayward> | rbraun, freenode has always operated under the guide that anyone who wants to talk about python in #python can do so so without being told they cannot. |
| 21:40:58 | <rbraun> | the thing is for a while, rasengan could hide behind the fact that he had someone on staff, eskimo |
| 21:41:03 | <Wayward> | it's not a new concept |
| 21:41:14 | <rbraun> | who not only wrote and ran the bot that took over 700 channels, sloppily, revealing private channels in the process |
| 21:41:35 | <rbraun> | Wayward: no, that's not true, python was a registered project channel and had ops who could ban if people were disruptive |
| 21:41:55 | <@JAA> | I mean, #python wasn't even getting shut down by the ops or anything. They just told people that they'd probably have better luck on Libera because the active users had all moved. |
| 21:41:57 | <Wayward> | rbraun: banning someone for being personally disruptive is different from banning someone for being on freenode |
| 21:42:09 | <@JAA> | The PSF/channel ops, I mean. |
| 21:42:24 | <Wayward> | freenode policy: you are allowed to be on freenode without harassment for being on freenode |
| 21:42:40 | <rbraun> | but eskimo also had previously had his IRC client, igloo, banned from freenode (and he later faked the ctcp version string in response) |
| 21:42:48 | <Wayward> | the Libra SJWs are attempting to marginalize and harangue freenode users |
| 21:43:13 | <rbraun> | because it uploaded images, including those sent by PM, to his arxius imgur-alike by default, and didn't tell people clearly they would be public |
| 21:43:36 | <rbraun> | and he was perving on people's nudes in there, and there are logs of this. but rasengan hired him as freenode staff |
| 21:43:57 | <rbraun> | he also, separately blackmailed someone on freenode with a dick pic he got from a third party (not from arxius, afaict) and got k-lined for that too |
| 21:44:14 | <rbraun> | eskimo was the most abusive IRCop on freenode and then stepped down yesterday |
| 21:44:18 | <Wayward> | rbraun: well i'm sold. freenode shoudl be shut down because people share dick pics with an expectation of privacy |
| 21:44:21 | <rbraun> | so now rasengan himself has stepped in to be an abusive fuck |
| 21:44:39 | <rbraun> | he can't hide behind his most abusive op anymore |
| 21:45:14 | <rbraun> | Wayward: to be clear, the person i am talking about was on rasengan's freenode staff until yesterday |
| 21:45:35 | <rbraun> | 17:41 < Wayward> rbraun: banning someone for being personally disruptive is different from banning someone for being on freenode |
| 21:45:47 | <thuban> | ffs. 'you might have better luck in libera, where the active users have moved' is not "harassment", and if you're going to complain about SJWs don't parrot their rhetoric about 'marginalization' |
| 21:45:47 | <rbraun> | banning for being personally disruptive is different from banning for telling people most of the active users are elsewhere |
| 21:46:34 | <Wayward> | thuban: that's just a cheeky way of saying "we don't want you to get helped here by people still here willing to give it." |
| 21:46:50 | <Wayward> | a bullying tactic |
| 21:46:52 | <@JAA> | lol |
| 21:46:59 | <@JAA> | Nobody was stopping anyone from helping. |
| 21:47:04 | <@JAA> | But also nobody was helping. |
| 21:47:13 | <@JAA> | Because the people who did previously moved to Libera. |
| 21:47:18 | <Wayward> | JAA: the same way people congesting intersections for "protests" aren't disrupting traffic flow? |
| 21:47:38 | <@JAA> | You know, I've long been wondering whether you're just a troll. |
| 21:47:43 | <Wayward> | that's basically what it amounts to in my view |
| 21:48:16 | <Wayward> | people being loud and obnoxious to make sure everyone is aware of their scorn |
| 21:48:28 | <rbraun> | 15:53 < Byteflux> bjs: It's often good to tolerate opposing beliefs, you never know what you might learn or how that person might positively affect you in the future. Better than just banning everyone who disagrees with you and calling them trolls. |
| 21:48:32 | <rbraun> | 15:54 < Byteflux> Don't know where I've seen that before, hm. |
| 21:48:35 | <rbraun> | 15:56 -!- mode/#freenode [+b *!*@byteflux.net] by root |
| 21:48:36 | <rbraun> | 15:56 -!- Byteflux was kicked from #freenode by root [It's often good to tolerate opposing beliefs, right?] |
| 21:48:57 | <rbraun> | yes, "root"/rasengan cares a whole lot about "cancel culture" and being able to have opposing views |
| 21:49:01 | <rbraun> | so much so he bans people for talking about it/them |
| 21:49:05 | <thuban> | i rather think directing someone to a place where they are more likely to get an answer _is_ helping. irc is not a physical space and people communicating in a channel is not zero-sum |
| 21:49:10 | <@JAA> | People want help. People come to #python on freenode. Nobody helps them because everyone moved to Libera. So someone points out that they might have more success there. What's the problem with this? |
| 21:49:18 | <rbraun> | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |
| 21:49:40 | <Wayward> | JAA: So someone has actually documented that "nobody helps them because everyone moved"? |
| 21:49:41 | <@JAA> | I have actually answered a question or two on the freenode channel after the move. I didn't get harassed or anything. |
| 21:49:52 | <Wayward> | this event actually took place and occured? |
| 21:50:15 | <rbraun> | i often get aggro from some left circles because i admit cancel culture is sometimes real, and sometimes causes dangerous effects when people don't question it (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Morse#2020_congressional_campaign) but what rasengan is doing is the very definition of actual cancel culture that he claims to decry |
| 21:50:20 | <@JAA> | There were plenty of questions in the channel after the move, and virtually no replies. |
| 21:50:22 | <Wayward> | or is it a utopia vision that this some day becomes true |
| 21:50:23 | <@JAA> | So yes. |
| 21:50:46 | <rbraun> | tbh the bans in #freenode and k-lines make me a lot angrier than the #python shit |
| 21:51:04 | <rbraun> | maybe i'm just jaded because i assumed rasengan already considered he owned every # channel and was moving on to ## |
| 21:51:59 | <Wayward> | He's just a simple Korean who doesn't believe in loud and obnoxious Westerners and their social causes |
| 21:52:10 | <rbraun> | but now mr. free speech korean crown prince (disputed) has decided that free speech is only for people that fellate him |
| 21:52:27 | <thuban> | because he's been so gentle and humble, right? :) |
| 21:52:35 | <@JAA> | Free speech = speech about freenode. It's kind of in the name, you know? |
| 21:52:43 | <rbraun> | lmao |
| 21:52:53 | <Wayward> | Speech as DDoS is not true speech. |
| 21:53:10 | <rbraun> | thuban: yeah, not like we had any signs of this coming from the very moment he made legal threats to take over a network he probably didn't legally own |
| 21:53:22 | <Wayward> | things to consider are signal to noise ratio |
| 21:53:41 | <rbraun> | well he's sure decreased that |
| 21:53:48 | <rbraun> | there is very little signal left anywhere on freenode |
| 21:53:50 | <rbraun> | let alone in #freenode |
| 21:54:04 | <Wayward> | because #freenode is +m again? |
| 21:54:18 | <rbraun> | no, because people asking any questions to try to hold the network accountable are kickbanned |
| 21:54:24 | <rbraun> | and so then trolls show up and drive up the noise |
| 21:54:38 | <rbraun> | since he can seem to do nothing but elevate the drama level |
| 21:55:25 | <@JAA> | I'm mostly just confused why he thinks this can end well in any scenario. |
| 21:55:45 | <thuban> | i wasn't aware that people sending messages was a ddos. but i would guess that you're not sympathetic to people censoring speech they don't like by calling it hate speech, so why is it ok to do the same thing by calling it denial of service? |
| 21:55:52 | <@JAA> | People don't want to use a network run by a person acting like that. Big surprise! |
| 21:56:06 | <thuban> | yeah that's basically it imo |
| 21:57:19 | <thuban> | i'm well sympathetic to the notion that all volunteer orgs are eventually cancerous, but whatever freenode staff had going on internally they managed to keep it up for a decade without my ever being aware of it, much less it impinging on my use of the network |
| 21:57:47 | <Wayward> | JAA: Once people relent with the platform spam and us-vs-them cool kids high school cafeteria bullying tactics, it'll eventually return to normalcy. |
| 21:57:58 | <Wayward> | IRC always does. |
| 21:58:38 | <Wayward> | It's weird that the people who left freenode feel a religious conviction to tell everyone on freenode that they left freenode. |
| 21:58:52 | <Wayward> | you would think their project's README contains the pertenent information. |
| 21:59:04 | <@JAA> | Except they don't. They try to point people to the new location of the community. |
| 21:59:31 | <thuban> | rasengan broke it single-handedly and somehow keeps coming back for more like some kind of douchebag curtain call |
| 21:59:31 | <EdSavoie> | so, the last time i was active in ArchiveTeam channels, we were on freenode, i assume this is all part of a long process of freenode imploding? |
| 21:59:34 | <@JAA> | Spoiler: the official documentation of Python points to Libera. |
| 21:59:49 | <@JAA> | EdSavoie: We were never on freenode. We were on EFnet. |
| 22:00:04 | <thuban> | EdSavoie: no, we used to be on efnet and moved to hackint because of stability issues |
| 22:00:10 | <EdSavoie> | ...right, why did i? |
| 22:00:18 | <EdSavoie> | ah well |
| 22:00:24 | <thuban> | er, what JAA said ^ |
| 22:00:30 | <@JAA> | Details for why: https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Move_Archiveteam_to_Hackint |
| 22:00:48 | <Wayward> | It wouldn't be surprising if one or few people squatted in the freenode channels during the migration discussion to see who shows up |
| 22:02:55 | <EdSavoie> | i know i've used freenode quite a bit for *something* clearly wasn't archiveteam... |
| 22:04:06 | <thuban> | a lot of foss channels (distros/languages/projects) are or were there |
| 22:04:44 | <EdSavoie> | perhaps, maybe |
| 22:06:54 | <@JAA> | But to answer your question: yes, freenode has been imploding for a while. Libera wasn't launched in a day from nothing. Former staff had been working on that for at least a month before, probably a fair bit longer. All this crap was clearly evident to them, but it wasn't really public until recently. |
| 22:11:14 | <Wayward> | From my obervation, the far-left extremism and political conflicts started propogating through freenode as early as just after Gamergate. |
| 22:11:33 | <Wayward> | Before then it was just simple. |
| 22:15:42 | <EdSavoie> | ...far-left extremism? Doing some reading on the issue, i see nothing that's really left / right at issue with the network itself? |
| 22:16:02 | <rbraun> | political conflicts started going thru a lot of the adjacent communities around then |
| 22:16:06 | <rbraun> | it didn't start on freenode |
| 22:17:01 | <rbraun> | my opinion on that now is the same as it's been, and is roughly equivalent to |
| 22:17:06 | <rbraun> | well, i'd link the thing but wayback is down |
| 22:17:40 | <rbraun> | never mind, it's here: https://archive.is/0OirT |
| 22:17:45 | <rbraun> | " FFS get Gamergate out of my mentions " |
| 22:19:27 | <Wayward> | Coding for coding, turned into Coding for cause. And the causes kept changing every 6 months in rapid progression with projects signing their names to them. |
| 22:20:03 | <Wayward> | It's almost surprising that we don't have a CoC3.1 like GPL licenses that appear on every repository |
| 22:23:14 | <rbraun> | i can't stand either gamergate or the woke-radlibs who think gamergate is some iconic representation of the real political battle |
| 22:23:25 | <Wayward> | Even the word "STEM" itself was attacked and recently changed to "STEAM" (A = arts) because "STEM" was too analytical, meritorious, gatekeeping. Now STEAM grants include anything from the liberal arts department, from dance to political science. |
| 22:24:13 | <rbraun> | i'm on the left on most issues tho i don't take sides in the culture war. and i've actually fought on *real* social justice issues, on criminal justice reform |
| 22:24:26 | <rbraun> | i just don't see a continued corporate driven culture war going well for the left |
| 22:24:41 | <Wayward> | Do you think liberal arts belons as a STEM field? ie, "gender studies" |
| 22:24:48 | <Wayward> | because it does now. |
| 22:25:16 | <rbraun> | i rarely see that acronym, and the 'A' often means 'architecture' |
| 22:25:25 | <Wayward> | it means Arts |
| 22:25:38 | <@JAA> | There are different definitions. |
| 22:25:45 | <@JAA> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science,_technology,_engineering,_and_mathematics#Other_variations |
| 22:25:50 | <rbraun> | well, i don't agree with grouping liberal arts with STEM |
| 22:25:57 | <rbraun> | that makes no sense |
| 22:25:58 | <rbraun> | other arts, might sometimes make some sense |
| 22:26:07 | <rbraun> | but i don't see it done very often |
| 22:26:52 | <Wayward> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEAM_fields first paragraph "STEAM fields are the areas of science, technology, engineering, the (liberal) arts,[1] and mathematics." |
| 22:27:33 | <@JAA> | Yes, now read the rest of the article. |
| 22:27:41 | <@JAA> | Especially the 'Other uses' section. |
| 22:27:51 | <Frogging101> | seems random to insert A for Arts in there |
| 22:28:00 | <Frogging101> | but I didn't read the scrollback so I have no idea what we're talking about |
| 22:28:09 | | Frogging101 re-lurks |
| 22:28:18 | <EdSavoie> | well we were talking about freenode |
| 22:28:24 | <EdSavoie> | but now i have no idea |
| 22:28:31 | <@JAA> | ^ |
| 22:34:26 | <thuban> | i am sufficiently pedantic to be annoyed when people equivocate between "liberal arts" and the humanities (pure math and natural sciences _are_ liberal arts), but it is a battle long lost |
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| 22:57:24 | <rbraun> | okay, that wikipedia page Wayward linked had (predictably) been massively spammed by self-promoters and some of that was left on there |
| 22:57:29 | <rbraun> | i've been cleaning it up |
| 22:57:39 | <rbraun> | tho the more blatant self-promo was already gone |
| 22:58:09 | <rbraun> | so the 'A' usually means arts, not liberal arts |
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