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| 00:40:50 | <aleph> | It does still have them afaik |
| 00:41:02 | <aleph> | atphoenix: Should just get everyone back on irc. |
| 00:52:10 | <Billy549> | Signal have said they're trying hard |
| 00:52:15 | <Billy549> | it's interesting that now everyone's jumping to signal tho |
| 00:55:51 | <lmx> | Elon musk ruining it for everyone |
| 00:55:56 | <lmx> | typical |
| 01:00:06 | <Billy549> | what did elon do |
| 01:00:09 | <Billy549> | tell everyone to use it? |
| 01:01:05 | <@JAA> | Yup https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1347165127036977153 |
| 01:09:07 | <@hook54321> | a lot/most of Signal's funding comes from a 105 million dollar "loan" |
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| 01:58:45 | <aleph> | Making it p2p or so you can switch backend instances would be nice. Can do it if you compile it yourself but that's annoying |
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| 02:18:40 | <Ajay> | they are very against that |
| 02:20:16 | <@JAA> | They also still don't have a Google-free version and hate F-Droid. Fuck em. |
| 02:20:51 | <@JAA> | I really wish they weren't so stubborn about that. |
| 02:46:41 | <Billy549> | why do they even hate F-Droid again |
| 02:46:53 | <Billy549> | also didnt they move to uh something Intel-based that everyone was like ???? wtf why |
| 02:50:56 | <@JAA> | The short version is: they don't want anyone to run APKs they haven't built and signed themselves. Even though F-Droid allows for that as long as the build is reproducible and based only on free code. The discussions have been going in circles for years now. |
| 02:51:50 | <@JAA> | They depend on non-free Google libraries and would have to get rid of those, and apparently they don't want to spend the few developer-days it would take to do that. |
| 02:52:20 | <@JAA> | It would give them an immediate trust boost within their target audience, but that doesn't seem to be enough motivation. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 02:56:50 | <@hook54321> | Someone tried to make a fully libre version, but were forced to not use their servers, effectively killing it. |
| 02:57:17 | <Billy549> | that is |
| 02:57:19 | <Billy549> | stupid of them to not do |
| 02:57:27 | <Billy549> | So basically I have to go get a copy from Aurora Store or w/e, and then use microG |
| 02:57:45 | <Billy549> | i also get to have a fun call with isp in the morning with my mum whose not going to understand if i cant get it cheaper |
| 02:57:58 | <atphoenix> | yes I agree. Many want a federated option that is easier to use than Matrix |
| 02:58:21 | <Billy549> | though it's kinda pissy that their new customer offers are literally £45/mo for 18 months for *500* down and we pay more for *350* down and no phone line - so i might be like "can we just renew contract for that 500Mbit offer" |
| 02:58:41 | <Billy549> | atphoenix: i've honestly never got the federation love, but that's mainly bc when i've dealt with ideas for it, it was in places where it didnt make sense |
| 02:59:09 | <atphoenix> | federation gets you interoperability |
| 02:59:44 | <Billy549> | i see |
| 02:59:44 | <@hook54321> | I wish keybase had been bought out by element |
| 02:59:57 | <Billy549> | i deleted my keybase very quickly |
| 03:00:06 | <Billy549> | wasn't using anyway, and that didnt instill me with confidence |
| 03:00:10 | <atphoenix> | pick your client, pick your server, and they can all communicate. Email can be federated. XMPP can be federated. |
| 03:00:18 | <Billy549> | email is by design federated is it not? :p |
| 03:00:30 | <@hook54321> | i still have the XLM airdrop :P |
| 03:00:36 | <Billy549> | i spent mine on Pokémon :P |
| 03:00:45 | <@hook54321> | worth about $400 rn iirc |
| 03:00:46 | <Billy549> | i'd like to put a new pgp key into a HW key but they're not cheap |
| 03:00:52 | <Billy549> | wow, ok maybe i shouldve hodl'ed longer |
| 03:00:59 | <@JAA> | HTTP, DNS, IP, etc. |
| 03:01:05 | <Billy549> | Yes, they are all federated, I got that |
| 03:01:12 | <atphoenix> | SMTP email is federated because it was designed to be. There were other email systems too...like Lotus Notes...that were non-federated internal systems |
| 03:01:22 | <Billy549> | SMTP <3 |
| 03:01:52 | <@JAA> | Basically, all the old protocols that still exist are federated because everything else inevitably dies as the sole owner of the copyright/patents/whatever decides to no longer support it. |
| 03:02:02 | <Billy549> | everybody dies:tm: |
| 03:02:12 | <Billy549> | i have a fido2 key rn but i wanna get one with NFC for phone, but that's a later thing |
| 03:02:16 | <Billy549> | everything cool is expensive |
| 03:02:34 | <atphoenix> | of course some of the non-federated systems (Lotus Notes) eventually built a bridge to the federated systems ...in order to stay somewhat relevant. |
| 03:05:16 | <Billy549> | makes sense |
| 03:07:37 | <atphoenix> | some developers/companies may not like federation because now those devs/companies need to actually come up with a standard, and then stick to it. That requires more discipline than just building spaghetti. And in some cases it makes adding features harder as everyone may not support the shiny new features. |
| 03:10:07 | <@JAA> | The bigger issue is that people then don't follow the standard, implement stuff that aren't spec-conformant, and then everyone else who wants to communicate with them has to implement that stuff as well. Federated spaghetti. |
| 03:10:34 | <@JAA> | And the federated standards aren't moving quickly for obvious reasons, so innovation is somewhat hindered. |
| 03:10:35 | <atphoenix> | Triple E...embrace extend extinguish |
| 03:10:51 | <@JAA> | Well yeah, but it's not always malicious. |
| 03:11:04 | <atphoenix> | fair enough, but that was Microsoft IE in Browser Wars 1.0 |
| 03:11:17 | <@JAA> | That was Microsoft in everything. And now Google's doing the same thing. |
| 03:12:25 | <atphoenix> | for some reason I feel less strongly about the threat Microsoft poses today than they did during Browser Wars 1.0. Quite possibly because Google and Amazon appear to have stronger positions. |
| 03:14:03 | <@JAA> | But the spaghetti issue is more general. IRC is a federated protocol, yet you basically can't run a network with different ircds because nobody really follows the server-to-server protocols, and you also can't implement a client or server based on specifications or documentation because literally nothing works as it says in the specs/docs. |
| 03:14:22 | <@JAA> | I tried it, and it failed at the second or third line exchanged with a real server. |
| 03:14:48 | <Billy549> | that's... infuriating |
| 03:16:37 | <@JAA> | Or HTTP. Yes, you can build a client that's spec-conformant, and it will even work fine with most servers. But then there are slightly misbehaved servers, and various clients (particularly browsers) have thousands of workarounds for slightly malformed stuff instead of throwing a rock at the server. Then people complain about your client not supporting their malformed shit, so you need to implement |
| 03:16:43 | <@JAA> | that as well although it's broken. |
| 03:17:38 | <@JAA> | Ultimately, you have this issue with virtually all open protocols and specifications. It's not really a federation thing but a more general intercompatibility problem. |
| 03:18:53 | <@JAA> | There are always slight ambiguities in standards, and some people abuse the spec, and others don't follow it and then directly or indirectly require others to work around their errors. |
| 03:19:51 | <atphoenix> | "Be conservative in what you send, be liberal in what you accept" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle |
| 03:20:01 | <@JAA> | Hell, this happened with the very standard based on web archival, which was written by people who know about all these problems. Yet technically there is basically no software out there that follows the WARC/1.0 specification (e.g. angle brackets around URLs, TE on payload digest calculations). |
| 03:20:53 | <atphoenix> | what is TE? |
| 03:21:04 | <@JAA> | atphoenix: Yes, but that's exactly the problem. If you're too liberal in what you accept, you will accept things that are non-standard, and if you're a big enough player, that will force everyone else to adjust for it. |
| 03:21:09 | <@JAA> | Transfer-Encoding |
| 03:21:29 | <@hook54321> | In Matrix currently their development works by implementing things in Synapse and Element before it's officially standardized. I expect that'll likely change when Dendrite is usable though. |
| 03:21:42 | <atphoenix> | JAA, true that |
| 03:22:01 | <@JAA> | In the long term, that is not robust at all. |
| 03:22:10 | <atphoenix> | Re: Signal overload...WhatsApp is also partly at fault for triggering a user stampede. https://techcrunch.com/2021/01/15/daily-crunch-whatsapp-responds-to-privacy-backlash/ |
| 03:22:29 | <atphoenix> | and I can only imagine the parler shutdown is also a factor |
| 03:23:05 | <@hook54321> | It wasn't as big of a deal with stuff like message reactions, but when it came with message editing it was irritating. Because on older versions of Element and some other clients it simply showed up as another message. |
| 03:23:13 | <@hook54321> | *came to |
| 03:23:18 | <atphoenix> | even though the use cases are different |
| 03:23:20 | <@JAA> | 'We will never integrate WhatsApp with Facebook.' lol, it was so obvious that was bullshit back then. |
| 03:25:51 | <atphoenix> | Billy549, btw, if you'd like to read up on alternative protocols to IP, look up IPX. I liked IPX. It was a breeze to use compared to IP, especially when trying to get a home network going as a novice. |
| 03:27:42 | <atphoenix> | it was common on Netware networks. Later, I think in Network 3.12 or 4.0, Netware added IP support, in order to try to stay relevant and interoperate better. |
| 03:39:57 | <@hook54321> | does anyone know any easy ways to self-host email? |
| 03:40:42 | <aleph> | atphoenix: Honestly not the biggest fan of the matrix protocol, and their server impls are shite. |
| 03:40:55 | <aleph> | Like the idea behind of course. Just needs better implementations |
| 03:41:07 | <@JAA> | hook54321: I've seen Mail-in-a-Box recommended quite frequently. It's supposedly a one-button solution. No experience with it though. |
| 03:41:32 | <@JAA> | aleph: But it uses HTTP and JSON!!1! |
| 03:42:18 | <aleph> | Haha |
| 03:42:28 | <aleph> | I mean it's not bad from a easy to dev for exp I guess |
| 03:42:35 | <aleph> | But fuck doing everything over http |
| 03:42:47 | <aleph> | JAA: Yeah Mailinabox is nice and easy, use it for my mail server |
| 03:43:13 | <@hook54321> | I'm kinda curious if it's possible to self-host ProtonMail, I haven't seen anyone do it though. |
| 03:43:35 | <aleph> | Nope |
| 03:43:41 | <aleph> | To my knowledge |
| 03:44:12 | <@hook54321> | afaik their stuff is pretty much all FOSS, but that doesn't mean it's easily hostable. |
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| 03:58:50 | <@hook54321> | https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-open-source/#comment-8926 :/ |
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| 13:58:41 | <EggplantN> | Dallas AK keg has made it indoors |
| 13:58:55 | <EggplantN> | https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/gZ647BeD/irccloudcapture6555028255487995791.jpg |
| 13:58:58 | <AK> | How much did you have to drink to make it light enough to carry? |
| 13:59:13 | <AK> | Oh boy, that's a proper keg |
| 13:59:33 | <EggplantN> | Oh I used to work in a pub. I can carry Size 11's |
| 13:59:53 | <EggplantN> | 22's are a bitch. Fucking 22 gallons in a metal drum. |
| 14:01:15 | <EggplantN> | Got to decide how to repurpose it. Might make a good flower pot |
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| 15:34:15 | <Billy549> | EggplantN: nice keg :P |
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| 15:37:43 | <EggplantN> | hehe |
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| 16:52:51 | <atphoenix> | you don't have a deposit on the keg encouraging a return? |
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| 17:13:21 | <EggplantN> | atphoenix: the pub did, I don't |
| 17:16:46 | <jut> | But... think of the planet |
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| 17:47:51 | <Dallas> | Yooooo that’s sick next goal optics |
| 17:48:12 | <Dallas> | That vodka though, my brother has the blueberry one and it just tastes like pure sugar :/ |
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| 18:42:44 | <EggplantN> | Ah see Dallas that wall I use for the projector |
| 18:42:48 | <EggplantN> | Otherwise I would |
| 18:43:02 | <EggplantN> | And fuck am I gonna let optics decide how much I can have 😂 |
| 18:43:09 | <EggplantN> | And drunk me is 100% smash the bottle |
| 18:43:48 | <EggplantN> | Aye that vodka I use it as a premixed blue Curacao |
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| 19:31:01 | <SketchTheCow> | Testing flashloops |
| 19:31:04 | <SketchTheCow> | twitch.tv/textfiles |
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| 22:21:37 | <jut> | Going back to the alcohol theme, turns out when you don't drink in two months 3 beers can do terrible things to one's ability to walk straight |
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| 22:32:34 | <AK> | At least your typing seems okay haha |
| 22:33:08 | <blue507> | lol |
| 22:46:46 | <jut> | I can't type to save my life when I'm sober, so the autocorrect isn't working that much harder, also it's 4 beers now |
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| 23:48:59 | <@kiska> | btw if you ever wanted to do CS https://cs1000.vercel.app/ :D |