| 02:00:01 | | Dallas quits [Client Quit] |
| 02:00:37 | | Arcorann (Arcorann) joins |
| 02:03:44 | | Dallas (Dallas) joins |
| 03:57:37 | <atphoenix> | well this is fun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nzD-QpmePE "Save Internet History With ArchiveTeam Warrior |
| 03:57:37 | <atphoenix> | " . Interesting to see what was happening in 2013. |
| 04:10:37 | | etnguyen03 (etnguyen03) joins |
| 04:31:38 | | qw3rty__ joins |
| 04:35:04 | | qw3rty_ quits [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] |
| 04:35:27 | | xit quits [Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat] |
| 04:36:35 | | xit joins |
| 04:46:20 | | etnguyen03 quits [Client Quit] |
| 04:49:17 | | lunik1 quits [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] |
| 04:52:41 | | lunik1 joins |
| 04:56:18 | | DogsRNice quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 04:57:51 | | Fusl_ (Fusl) joins |
| 04:57:51 | | @ChanServ sets mode: +o Fusl_ |
| 05:15:34 | <atphoenix> | brad: as I think the Python conversation is slipping off AT topic...I'll continue here. Yes. I have some of the same concerns as that post, and also in various other open-source projects that continue to not implement long-requested features or bug fixes. LibreOffice Calc not having a single button 'Remove Duplicates' function is one of them. It's frequently used by Excel users. Google Sheets also has it. My quick |
| 05:15:34 | <atphoenix> | workaround for that missing feature (when it is only a single column of cells) is to copy the text to Notepad++, sort it, and remove the line duplicates there. |
| 05:19:00 | <Doranwen> | atphoenix: there is a way to do it with a dialog but it's not as convenient and you wouldn't stumble across it by accident |
| 05:19:22 | <atphoenix> | i think i read about that |
| 05:19:28 | <atphoenix> | it was a PITA to remember |
| 05:19:28 | <Doranwen> | I did some searches because I needed it, lol |
| 05:19:41 | <atphoenix> | It's not a casual quick thing to do |
| 05:20:24 | <Doranwen> | no, it's a few steps |
| 05:20:47 | <atphoenix> | GNOME 3 I also wasn't keen on the Gnome 3 changes made to make it 'touch friendly'. I prefer MATE or other Ubuntu-flavors |
| 05:21:17 | <Doranwen> | my mom was not very impressed with LibreOffice's limitations in some areas - namely the mail merge, though maybe that's improved somewhat since she first tried it |
| 05:21:57 | <Doranwen> | we're on an older version because we're still using Mint 18 versions (based on Xenial) - upgrading to a much more recent release is on my to-do list this spring |
| 05:21:59 | <@JAA> | ++atphoenix, I switched to XFCE shortly after I first saw GNOME 3. |
| 05:22:02 | <Doranwen> | I love MATE |
| 05:22:36 | <Doranwen> | I bailed on Ubuntu the moment I saw Unity, lol - I'd first tried Ubuntu back before then, and when I saw Unity I was like "what is this?" couldn't figure out how to do *anything* with it and it frustrated me to no end |
| 05:22:41 | <atphoenix> | I am of the opinion if the solution is annoying to *me* (I like to think I'm quite techsavvy), that the non-tech savvy people will simply say it is unusable 9for pretty good reason) |
| 05:22:58 | <Doranwen> | so when I went to pick a distro for my first Linux computer (not just a VM) I went with Mint MATE |
| 05:23:09 | <Doranwen> | because it looked the sanest and most logical to me ;) |
| 05:25:31 | <@JAA> | Well, there is an argument to be made about interfaces that are highly functional vs accessible. |
| 05:25:58 | <atphoenix> | I also like XFCE. I've run Xubuntu at times. I also like the lightness of the UI PartedMagic has put together. |
| 05:27:00 | <@JAA> | Stuff that's heavily based around the keyboard (e.g. all terminal stuff) is obviously very functional and can be quite well-designed for the task, but the average non-tech-inclined person will throw that out of the window immediately. |
| 05:27:46 | <atphoenix> | I think PartedMagic is OpenBox based. |
| 05:28:53 | <@hook54321> | I've been using XFCE for years, considering switching to KDE though. |
| 05:30:21 | <@JAA> | KDE looks fine, but my experience with their packaging and libraries has been ... underwhelming. |
| 05:31:15 | <OrIdow6> | I've been using KDE for about 3 years (GNOME previously) and it works pretty well |
| 05:31:55 | <@hook54321> | This reminds me, I need to see if I can get Ubuntu to use OpenRC |
| 05:32:09 | <@JAA> | I guess it's fine if you're using more than one or two KDE-based applications and/or the actual desktop environment. |
| 05:33:18 | <OrIdow6> | Yeah, when you installed all 200 libraries of whatever it is from the install disk it works fine |
| 05:33:25 | <@JAA> | But if you run something else and just want to use a couple programs, you won't get around pulling in their entire network, I/O, and whatever else stack because *everything* is abstracted away. |
| 05:33:45 | <@JAA> | Look at this beautiful dependency list of Okular: https://packages.debian.org/sid/okular |
| 05:34:23 | <OrIdow6> | Apropos of the problems that result from open-source development, KDE does seem to have this problem where they try to make a program "user-friendly", but don't bother with the deeper technical parts, so that it's superficially user-friendly but breaks easily, is hard to configure, etc. |
| 05:34:40 | <@JAA> | I like the dependency on kinit, which 'makes starting a typical KDE applications 2.5 times faster (100ms instead of 250ms on a P-III 500) It reduces memory consumption by approx. 350Kb per application.' lol |
| 05:34:46 | <atphoenix> | I'm not opposed to keyboard-heavy UIs; whether command line, text-based or graphical. For sure, use whatver works best for you. I regularly use the keyboard shortcuts for menu items I access frequently, and was bothered when the underlines disappeared in Windows apps as that meant less discoverability. Those underlines helped me learn shortcuts. My main thing is with basic missing features. |
| 05:34:53 | <OrIdow6> | And a simpler if slightly more difficult solution isn't available |
| 05:36:29 | <OrIdow6> | E.g. Akonadi, which stores your mail, contacts, etc. in a MySQL(?) database instead of something like a maildir, is mandatory if you want to use any of the KDE programs for this sort of thing, and which seems to break in some obscure about annually for me |
| 05:37:35 | <@JAA> | atphoenix: I mean non-obvious keyboard navigation, i.e. things that wouldn't be shown in menus. Browsers have loads of them, and many people are unaware. Two basic examples: Ctrl + PgDn/PgUp to switch to adjacent tabs or Ctrl + W to close a tab (although I guess that's shown in some browsers; not in Firefox though). |
| 05:39:32 | <OrIdow6> | I like how they're doing the comparison on a processor from 1999 |
| 05:39:39 | <@JAA> | Yep |
| 05:39:44 | <atphoenix> | back in the days of 98lite.net, when there was an effort to rip IE out of Win98, there was some post or screenshot showing the level of DLL dependencies that Microsoft had created with the new Windows Explorer. I think there was a screenshot of Dependency Walker (depends.exe) http://dependencywalker.com/ . In the end 98lite.net used explorer.exe from an early (pre-IE) version of Win95, on top of Win98, and that didn't |
| 05:39:44 | <atphoenix> | have a huge dependency chain. Which also meant a 16 or 32 mb PC was still usable. |
| 05:40:14 | <atphoenix> | JAA: I use those shortcuts all the time :) |
| 05:40:28 | <atphoenix> | it's the only way when tabs-run-wild |
| 05:40:29 | <@JAA> | Hah, nice. |
| 05:40:47 | <@JAA> | Yeah, but the average user probably doesn't even know shortcuts exist for those things. |
| 05:41:11 | <@JAA> | Also Alt+1 to 9 to switch to the first 8 or the last open tab. |
| 05:46:00 | <atphoenix> | IMO, for 3 tabs, it isn't a big deal for a casual user. The same or similar shortcuts also work in other tabbed software. It's a lucky thing if a casual user knows Alt-Tab. At least we still have keyboard shortcut support in most desktop software. |
| 05:46:22 | <@JAA> | Aye |
| 05:47:00 | <@JAA> | And then we have web interfaces which run JS that captures all keyboard presses, and suddenly all the browser shortcuts don't work anymore. |
| 05:47:39 | <@JAA> | But I sense that I'm getting angry again, so I'll leave now. :-) |
| 05:47:49 | <atphoenix> | I probably learned most of my shortcuts, and more advanced capabilities, when I doing it the 'other way' became just too painful. In some cases the UI helped by learn the faster ways, but I know some I learned by reading tips guides. |
| 05:48:22 | <atphoenix> | one of the first things I did on early Firefox versions was disable the settings that allowed websites to block or change my right click options. |
| 05:49:11 | <atphoenix> | Right click is MINE. Websites have no right to mess with my right click. |
| 05:49:15 | <@kiska> | Huh :D |
| 05:49:24 | <@kiska> | I guess I am in that segment that didn't mind Unity |
| 05:49:40 | <@JAA> | I mean, you also use Windows... |
| 05:49:48 | <@JAA> | ;-) |
| 05:50:01 | <@kiska> | Yeah fine me functional Oculus Rift support |
| 05:50:05 | <@kiska> | find* |
| 05:51:07 | <@kiska> | And wine makes the whole experience... less than desirable(ie I get motion sick) |
| 05:51:59 | <atphoenix> | I use Windows too, but not for everything. I also use Wine...to run specific Windows apps on Linux that I think are better than the Linux options. |
| 05:52:08 | <OrIdow6> | Don't drink before you use VR then :P |
| 05:53:15 | <atphoenix> | and don't drink and run AB. Just ask flashfire42 :) https://archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Drunken_Archiving |
| 05:53:50 | <flashfire42> | https://server8.kiska.pw/uploads/e6d3dd1222191ed4/Bammer.jpg I will hit you with a Bammer |
| 05:55:32 | <atphoenix> | Bat-hammers/Bammers are a means of force magnification |
| 05:57:14 | <@kiska> | OrIdow6: Besides its not like I can ask M$ to refund my Windows license at this point :D |
| 05:58:39 | <@kiska> | And the other thing I play Flight Simulator 2020 :D |
| 05:59:55 | <Doranwen> | atphoenix: hee, that's what I use Wine for as well sometimes |
| 05:59:57 | <atphoenix> | X-Plane is multi-platform |
| 06:02:22 | <atphoenix> | AFAIK, Microsoft is still activating free Windows 10 upgrade licenses, so you can buy a Win 7 laptop with a Win 7 code sticker on it, and get Win10 at no extra cost. |
| 06:02:43 | | Doranwen likes PDF X-Change Viewer for a pdf reader even better than qpdfview |
| 06:03:03 | <atphoenix> | Doranwen, yes, that is one of the tools I run in Wine |
| 06:03:18 | <Doranwen> | and I actually use it all the time - because the snapshot feature I've not found in a Linux pdf reader |
| 06:03:22 | <Doranwen> | and I find that very valuable |
| 06:04:18 | <Doranwen> | it's way more work to take a screenshot of the page (assuming I can see all of it - the ability to grab the entire page even if it's partially offscreen is unparalleled), dump into Gimp or some other editor, and crop the part I want |
| 06:05:03 | <atphoenix> | i use it for tabs, which it can also remember between launches |
| 06:05:32 | <Doranwen> | oh yes, I've used it for that as well - though qpdfview can do that |
| 06:07:35 | <atphoenix> | but can it make minor edits and stamps? |
| 06:08:27 | <OrIdow6> | I haven't used either (or, if I have, I don't remember), but from what I've heard Microsoft Flight Simulator is better than XPlane |
| 06:11:08 | <@kiska> | I don't have XPlane :D |
| 06:11:28 | <Doranwen> | atphoenix: no idea, I never edit or stamp my pdfs, lol |
| 06:11:39 | <Doranwen> | I only need it for viewing and grabbing parts of the pics |
| 06:12:24 | <OrIdow6> | kiska: Yeah, if you have a license, you may as well use it |
| 06:12:35 | <OrIdow6> | I'm not Richard Stallman; Windows is fine for most things |
| 06:12:53 | <OrIdow6> | And better than Linux in many areas |
| 06:13:53 | <@kiska> | I was doing a course at one point in time, and the software we used was Ansys... And guess which platform it works on |
| 06:14:16 | <Doranwen> | lol, I switched because I didn't like the way Windows was going towards the direction of Macs in "we know how you should use your computer better than you do" - less and less control and more locked down, it felt like |
| 06:14:50 | <@kiska> | I think Ansys got rid of MacOS support too |
| 06:15:00 | <Doranwen> | and once I'd had a taste of Linux thanks to a friend who had me try it in a VM… |
| 06:15:16 | <Doranwen> | it was only a matter of time before I was on Linux all the time :) |
| 06:15:25 | <@kiska> | Whereas I literally can't |
| 06:15:59 | <@kiska> | Not only does the Oculus rift not work well in Linux, when it does it makes me motion sick even if I have had nothing for 6 hours |
| 06:17:03 | | Doranwen nods |
| 06:17:18 | <Doranwen> | I keep a couple older Windows boxes around for certain games that I haven't gotten working in Linux properly yet |
| 06:17:44 | | Doranwen thinks fondly of The Lost Mind of Dr. Brain, which requires 256 colors and utterly fails to install in a VM |
| 06:18:05 | <@kiska> | I've tried to get Beat Saber working in Linux, I got motion sick every single time |
| 06:18:42 | <@kiska> | And me being me, I only have 2 meals a day |
| 06:18:56 | <@kiska> | So even on an empty stomach makes me motion sick |
| 06:19:32 | <@kiska> | I know the HTC vive is a bit better in that regard, but its also 2x the cost |
| 06:22:43 | <OrIdow6> | Don't blame you |
| 06:24:07 | <OrIdow6> | Unless graphics APIs magically stabilise (or unless people stop pushing the hardware to its limit), I don't think Wine (or anything like that) is ever going to be at the speed of the native environment |
| 06:24:53 | <@kiska> | It doesn't even need to be native speed, it just needs to not be motion sickness inducing |
| 06:25:08 | <OrIdow6> | Does seem sort of ridiculous that it's slow enough to give you motion sickness, though |
| 06:25:10 | <OrIdow6> | Yeah |
| 06:25:17 | <@kiska> | I can get away with playing Beat Saber with 25% GPU use @ 600Mhz on my Radeon VII |
| 06:25:38 | <@kiska> | I think Wine vsync's at 60hz which is motion sickness |
| 06:26:04 | <@kiska> | Depending on headset, 75hz is sufficient for VR |
| 06:26:55 | <@kiska> | For the Oculus Rift its 90hz |
| 07:00:38 | | LeGoupil joins |
| 07:23:42 | | jon_ quits [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] |
| 08:23:01 | | lunik1 quits [Client Quit] |
| 08:33:02 | | lunik1 joins |
| 09:19:46 | | jon_ joins |
| 09:19:51 | | jon_ is now known as Jon |
| 09:20:07 | | Jon is now authenticated as jon |
| 10:20:36 | | kpcyrd quits [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] |
| 10:21:13 | | kpcyrd (kpcyrd) joins |
| 11:55:32 | | Dallas quits [Client Quit] |
| 11:55:48 | | Dallas (Dallas) joins |
| 12:37:15 | | HP_Archivist quits [Quit: Leaving] |
| 12:48:46 | | HP_Archivist (HP_Archivist) joins |
| 13:05:12 | | lukash7 quits [Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat] |
| 13:10:06 | | lukash7 joins |
| 13:23:52 | | HP_Archivist quits [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 14:00:01 | | Larsenv quits [Quit: ZNC 1.8.0 - https://znc.in] |
| 14:24:24 | | Arcorann quits [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] |
| 14:58:46 | | s-crypt quits [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] |
| 14:59:00 | | @kiska quits [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] |
| 14:59:00 | | flashfire42 quits [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] |
| 15:09:01 | | s-crypt (s-crypt) joins |
| 15:09:25 | | flashfire42 (flashfire42) joins |
| 15:10:15 | | kiska (kiska) joins |
| 15:10:15 | | @ChanServ sets mode: +o kiska |
| 15:10:39 | <@kiska> | RIP aws |
| 15:10:48 | <@kiska> | Lets check if my logs get saved :D |
| 15:11:14 | | flashfire42 quits [Client Quit] |
| 15:11:14 | | @kiska quits [Client Quit] |
| 15:11:14 | | s-crypt quits [Client Quit] |
| 15:11:36 | | s-crypt (s-crypt) joins |
| 15:11:59 | | flashfire42 (flashfire42) joins |
| 15:12:50 | | kiska (kiska) joins |
| 15:12:50 | | @ChanServ sets mode: +o kiska |
| 15:14:58 | <@kiska> | Ah excellent! aws managed to move my instance without my db dying this time |
| 17:07:43 | | Larsenv (Larsenv) joins |
| 18:02:07 | | DogsRNice (Webuser299) joins |
| 19:36:20 | | Craigle quits [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] |
| 19:36:44 | | Craigle (Craigle) joins |
| 21:33:40 | | godane2 quits [Client Quit] |
| 21:42:36 | | LeGoupil quits [Client Quit] |
| 23:54:28 | | Arcorann (Arcorann) joins |