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16:54:53<nico_32>https://archive.org/details/NoobRPG <= they have a public alpha but i found in the same folder older build :)
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19:37:28<tech234a>YouTube-DL just got DMCA’d by the RIAA https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/10/2020-10-23-RIAA.md
19:38:33<tech234a>GitHub repo is gone but PyPi listing is still up
19:41:43<OrIdow6>(Copied+pasted in -bs, as I thought this was also of on-topic interest)
19:43:23<Wayward>Just seen this on reddit DataHoarders too :(
19:43:45<Wayward>-s
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19:49:26<Wayward>One thing I'm not clear on is how these "rolling cipher technical protection measures" that YouTube is said to employ and that youtube-dl is said to circomvent, the main basis of this DMCA claim, is even a thing. What makes youtube-dl any different from a web browser that poles data from YouTube in order to display it or store it in memory, cache, harddisk space?
19:49:26<Wayward>Every web browser MUST definitionally circomvent these measures
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19:53:54<Wayward>My second complaint is this asserting (US)DMCA based on meanings only adopted by the EU; "effective technical measure within the meaning of EU". These two legal systems are incompatible with one another.
20:01:18<OrIdow6>It counts as circumvention because the law is concerned with humans and not computers, and even though it's technically the same algorithm it's used for different purposes
20:13:14<Wayward>OrIdow6: So, if a web browser automatically caches or saves all video/media content to the hard disk drive for offline viewing, performance optimization, is that still circumvention? Does YouTube explicitly prohibit a browser from functioning in such a way?
20:13:41<maxfan8>I'm not a lawyer -- do any of you guys think this DMCA takedown request will be countered?
20:22:09<OrIdow6>Wayward: At least in a non-legal sense, if a human extracts things from the cache in order to bypass copyright protections, it's circumvention (again, I can't comment on the legal meaning)
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20:23:06<OrIdow6>If, in a hypothetical, the browser bypasses copyright protections (in a way directly known to its authors), but only for performance reasons, it's on the border in my terminology
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20:24:34<OrIdow6>What the RIAA, its members, and by and large the public/government care about here is that a copyright owner should be able to benefit from their property, in practice to sell it
20:25:57<OrIdow6>The takedown letter tried to prove (fairly convincingly, it looks to me) that Youtube-dl advertised itself as being able to bypass copyright restrictions, and there were components of it created specially to bypass Youtube's protections on videos of high copyright value
20:28:19<OrIdow6>Obviously the actual law is much more fine, but in the abstract all computers/networks are a single black box, and what matters is who produces the music/videos and who consumes them
20:28:23<Wayward>Seems strange to me that a Web Browser even makes a legal distinction between data that is only displayed ephemerally on a view screen, versus data that persists on a storage device for later view screen rendering. And I thought we solved this issue of 'time shift' in the courts with the VCR, and again with DVR cable boxes, satellite boxes, and the original TiVo brand DVR.
20:29:20<Wayward>https://consumerist.com/2014/01/17/on-this-day-in-1984-the-supreme-court-saved-the-vcr-from-certain-death/
20:29:42<Wayward>> Justice John Paul Stevens’ majority opinion in the case deemed home videotaping legal in the United States. The ruling also bore an important principle that has been used time and time again in lawsuits – if a product has a substantial, legitimate use it can be sold, even if some consumers use it illegitimately.
20:31:17<Wayward>It's not even the act of videotaping that was in contention, but the unlawful duplication and sale of videotapes. The American citizen has always had a patent right to preserve their auditory and visual stimuli into long term record. That is. The right to download videos they watch on YouTube for later recall.
20:31:22<OrIdow6>To my understanding what's being invoked here is a part of the DMCA that forbids devices created to bypass copyright-restrictive technical measures, even if the duplication/sharing would otherwise be legal
20:31:57<Wayward>I just don't see this as being any sort of restrictive technical measure, as it employs standard internet downloading schema
20:32:08<Wayward>otherwise the web browser could not function
20:34:09<Wayward>And even if The Price Is Right (tv game show) offered for sale VHS copy of the day's televized show, that doesn't distract the home viewer from producing their own recording on their own equipment. Even if that does bite into the network's sales figures.
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20:35:13<OrIdow6>It's true that the technological basis (HTTP, Javascript, etc.) is common enough, but what was built on top of that meant that it was non-trivial to get usable copies of the videos, and deliberately so
20:35:44<Wayward>OrIdow6: Then how does every web browser do it effortlessly without special closed-source drivers?
20:36:40<OrIdow6>This is effectively equivalent to a sandboxed closed-source driver
20:37:05<Wayward>It is?
20:38:18<Wayward>I mean, the Broadcom cellular CDMA/GSM decoders are closed-source and nobody is allowed to write their own CDMA/GSM communications bundle, because it's a private secret
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20:38:56<OrIdow6>It's technically possible to dissassemble it, and then interpret the result of that, just as it is with whatever obfuscation Youtube was using
20:39:07<Wayward>But does YouTube actually do something to that effect beyond a time expirey token?
20:39:20<OrIdow6>To what effect?
20:39:39<Wayward>to the effect of writing their own transfer protocols
20:40:17<Wayward>like their own private video game Client/Server model
20:41:23<Wayward>but even still, the VCR has a privileged right to record anything that the view screen can see
20:41:36<Wayward>protected by the highest courts
20:42:15<OrIdow6>They have something similar to their own transfer protocols, in the "rolling cipher" as the video traveled over the network
20:42:22<Wayward>it does this by decoding the signal that would otherwise be decoded by the television, using intercepted signals
20:42:56<OrIdow6>Television isn't expressly designed to be difficult to decode
20:43:10<Wayward>neither are the packets received from YouTube. They're clear
20:43:21<Wayward>not enciphered
20:44:08<Wayward>This is what I mean by the EU courts are incompatible with the US courts, because I don't think we see this as a meaningful cipher in the legal sense
20:45:18<Wayward>there has to be an unknowable secret for it to be a cipher, and no cryptographic attack is being committed, right?
20:48:25<Wayward>that is, i think it's too trivial to rise to the standard of "circomventing encryption"
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20:50:26<OrIdow6>The DMCA, in intention, isn't about how copy protection is implemented technically, it's about whether it's present or not
20:51:18<OrIdow6>When software was distributed on disks, software authors would add copy protection schemes that worked by checking, at runtime, whether the disk had physical characteristics that couldn't be easily duplicated by end users
20:51:49<@arkiver>oof
20:51:54<OrIdow6>Other companies would make products to bypass these protection schemes by intercepting and faking the system calls etc., all on the open market
20:52:00<@arkiver>so youtube-dl is gone
20:52:05<@arkiver>not sure if we got it with the github project
20:52:25<OrIdow6>There was no encryption involved there, but the DMCA still outlawed this (as I understand)
20:53:03<@JAA>arkiver: Unless we grabbed it very recently, nope.
20:54:17<Ryz>!ig 9lhykd8hnfypo456gwf3ep910 ^https?://secureir\.ebaystatic\.com/
20:54:20<Ryz>Oops
20:54:57<Wayward>OrIdow6: The DMCA still doesn't overrule the Sony Corp. v. Universal Studios decision
20:56:06<Wayward>DVD has protections, but you're still allowed to intercept the decoded signal and record it to VHS or TiVo
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21:17:19<@JAA>https://github.com/github/dmca/commit/bccf7d0dbfec423c4a967f668be47b6339d15893#r43526286
21:17:31<@JAA>Yeah, let's link to other places where the code can still be found in the DMCA notice.
21:17:35<@JAA>Great fucking idea. lol
21:19:10<OrIdow6>If that was the case to an absolute extent, presumably anti-circumvention part of the DMCA would only apply to software; I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know the legal details, but that the RIAA seems to think this has a chance suggests that that's not the case
21:19:54<OrIdow6>They work hard in the letter to GitHub to try to establish that infringement is a major and intended use of Youtube-dl
21:21:09<OrIdow6>Which sounds like it may be influenced by that decision
21:21:29<@JAA>I haven't read the entire discussion, but if this is valid, surely libdvdcss and libbluray would've been DMCA'd years ago, right?
21:22:14<@JAA>Not that the fuckers didn't try, but those projects are still alive and well with forks on GitHub and whatnot.
21:23:29<OrIdow6>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libdvdcss#Distribution indicates there are fears
21:23:37<tech234a>Someone posted a link in -bs... apparently contributors are facing legal action
21:23:41<OrIdow6>Maybe they don't go after it because it's French
21:27:14<nico_32>vlc have their own gitweb service
21:27:20<nico_32>hosted on french server
21:27:26<nico_32>so dmca do not apply :)
21:28:11<@JAA>Well yeah, not DMCA, but the relevant EU legislation.
21:30:55<nico_32>we have HADOPI in France
21:31:05<nico_32>that manage the 3-strike policy
21:31:35<nico_32>and the whole DRM situation
21:32:10<nico_32>VLC managed to get a legal advise from hadopi
21:32:17<nico_32>that make any move against them
21:32:37<nico_32>seriously hazardous for everyone
21:33:51<nico_32>so everyone keep the status quo
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23:18:44<lunik1>it appears there is an intact and up-to-date mirror of youtube-dl's source code on gitee
23:20:19<@JAA>Yep, was already mentioned and grabbed.
23:20:24<@JAA>There are also several copies on GitHub.
23:21:27<lunik1>ah in -bs my bad.

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