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00:00:00<eggdrop>[remind] thuban: upload game atsumaru data
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00:50:10<@JAA>Brilliant: https://transfer.archivete.am/inline/eGTtN/worldoftanks-http.txt
00:51:25<fireonlive>...
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00:53:31<@JAA>I have a working thing to get past the challenge with qwarc.
00:54:10<@JAA>Response times over 2 seconds though, so that'll be interesting...
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00:57:56<@JAA>Fun quirk: if the topic slug contains special characters, you don't get redirected to the canonical URL.
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00:59:26<fireonlive>🤦🏻‍♂️
00:59:54<@JAA>At least the canonical URL is in the HTML, so it's easy to fix, but yeah, that confused me for a second. :-)
01:02:05<fireonlive>ah that's good at least :)
01:07:42<@JAA>Forum slugs apparently can't contain special characters. The Ukranian forums are linked as https://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/forum/3173-%d1%83%d0%ba%d1%80%d0%b0%d1%97%d0%bd%d1%81%d1%8c%d0%baa-%d1%81%d0%bf%d1%96%d0%bb%d1%8c%d0%bd%d0%be%d1%82%d0%b0/ on the homepage ('Українськa спільнота' = Ukrainian community), but that redirects to
01:07:47<@JAA>https://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/forum/3174-ua-forum/ . :-)
01:08:29<@JAA>Nevermind, there are ones with special characters in the Asian forums.
01:08:34<@JAA>¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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01:31:40<fireonlive>huh, wonder why one but not hte other lol
01:40:23<jasonderulo20>im gay
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01:41:51<fireonlive>same
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04:36:10<eggdrop>[remind] thuban: add annozone to deathwatch
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06:02:06<Vokun>kiska grafana seems broken for the past 9 hours or so
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07:37:41<h2ibot>Switchnode edited Deathwatch (+380, /* 2024 */ add annozone): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=52254&oldid=52249
07:39:41<h2ibot>Switchnode edited Deathwatch (-41, /* 2024 */ fix syntax): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=52255&oldid=52254
07:40:36<thuban>JAA: thanks, glad you have something working!
07:42:15<thuban>yeah, the challenge didn't look too bad, but i figured running the damn thing might be faster to write (/ generalize better if we ever needed something similar again)
07:46:33<thuban>sounds like the backend may be limping; is turning up concurrency high enough to finish before the deadline going to be an issue or are we good?
08:10:00<thuban>!remindme 1week upload game atsumaru data
08:10:01<eggdrop>[remind] ok, i'll remind you at 2024-05-24T00:00:00Z
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08:25:20<@JAA>thuban: I haven't actually started it yet because I'm very tired and want to be around (and sane) for the first while it runs. We'll see how it reacts to high concurrency, will definitely be needed to have a chance at completion.
08:25:41<thuban>ack
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08:52:45<thuban>fireonlive: you changed 'w' to use current time rather than midnight utc, but 'week' still uses the latter? ^^
08:53:23<thuban>(i don't actually care which but it ought to be consistent)
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15:43:30<aninternettroll-xmpp>Hi, anyone got any tools for archiving xmpp/jabber rooms?
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17:12:15<h2ibot>FireonLive edited Current Projects (+48, post news is now past news): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=52256&oldid=52246
17:12:16<h2ibot>FireonLive edited Current Projects (+0, ..?): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=52257&oldid=52256
17:14:15<h2ibot>FireonLive edited Post News (-5, saved!): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=52258&oldid=52252
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18:05:24<h2ibot>Exorcism edited Post News (+30): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=52259&oldid=52258
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18:20:26<h2ibot>Nulldata edited Post News (+213, Clarified that the DPoS project wasn't able to…): https://wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=52260&oldid=52259
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18:52:37<@JAA>Yeah, the World Of Tanks forums are insanely bad. I ran a test at 10 concurrency, response times shot to 20 seconds average.
18:52:58<@JAA>And now it seems I'm banned.
18:53:08<@JAA>Not even getting the JS challenge thing.
18:53:46<Notrealname1234>CloudFlare?
18:53:52<@JAA>No
18:54:26<Notrealname1234>Oh ok
18:55:20<@JAA>Should've started this much sooner. :-|
18:58:13<thuban>:|
18:59:42<@JAA>At least the ban expired in 10-15 minutes.
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19:02:06<thuban>that's fortunate at least
19:02:42<@JAA>I'm getting basically the same throughput with 1 as with 10 connections.
19:02:54<@JAA>Maybe they're throttling.
19:03:36<@JAA>No IPv6 sadly
19:04:21<thuban>throttling, potato clock, who knows?
19:06:23<@JAA>I didn't notice a difference from an independent connection while I was getting the 20-second response times.
19:06:35<@JAA>So I don't think it's just potato.
19:06:45<@JAA>But maybe throttling to protect the potato.
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19:10:51<thuban>mmm
19:13:49<thuban>i should have been more proactive about stepping up for this, sorry about that x_x
19:14:06<thuban>but a definite 'no, i'm busy' would have been appreciated
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19:44:41<c3manu>anyone here has experience with archiving publicly available data (don't need to be webpages) from a mastodon instance before?
19:50:52<@JAA>thuban: Yeah, I looked at it a bit in February, after it went read-only and the AB job failed, but then other things came up and I kind of forgot about it. Sorry.
19:51:01<fireonlive>c3manu: with AB we just do /embed on each post ID atm
19:51:03<fireonlive>but that's all I know
19:51:12<fireonlive>on->after
19:51:21<@JAA>X-Forwarded-For trick doesn't work, sadly.
19:51:34<@JAA>The rate limiting is separate for the three regions.
19:51:36<c3manu>JAA: all good. could have tried fooling around with it much earlier
19:52:11<@JAA>I'm reasonably certain now that they just throttle you to one response per IP per 2 seconds.
19:52:16<c3manu>and i'm not in the right state of mind rn to figure out how to work with the api on the spot
19:52:38<@JAA>To be clear, I'm talking about the World Of Tanks forums, not Mastodon.
19:53:11<c3manu>good to know, although i wasn't responding to what you said
19:53:49<c3manu>also: how can anyone be productive with python without hating the language and tooling? >.<
19:54:06<@JAA>The language is pretty great. The tooling... yeah.
19:54:30<fireonlive>everytime i read python i think of something else so i'm more motivated to use it
19:54:34<c3manu>i have to open a bash before i can open a venv :D
19:55:13<c3manu>oh, cool :D i got a familiar response ^^
19:55:13<c3manu>Error: 429 error fetching https://social.network.europa.eu/api/v1/timelines/public?local=1&max_id=109501376177835809
19:55:21<@JAA>At least the packaging has been improving dramatically in the past few years. PEP 517 etc.
19:55:30<c3manu>which one? :)
19:56:07<@JAA>The recent distutils removal uncovered a lot of silent runtime dependencies on setuptools. lol
19:56:37<fireonlive>we all use.. *checks well worn paper* poetry now right?
19:56:54<fireonlive>https://python-poetry.org/
19:57:31<@JAA>Oh freddled gruntbuggly...
19:57:33<katia>yes sure, and we all write tests
19:57:36<katia>right?
19:57:59<@JAA>A human integration test counts, right?
19:58:16<c3manu>that's why i'm asking, i'm completely new to the ecosystem (:
19:58:38<@JAA>I use pyenv with its virtualenv plugin, and pip.
19:58:57<c3manu>having to learn everything at once (those weird language intricacies allowing me to shoot myself in the foot, the tooling, the packaging, AND using REST APIs etc...)
19:59:17<c3manu>..doesn't make it easier
19:59:26<fireonlive>ah yes everything is 100% test coverage
19:59:31<fireonlive>😰
20:01:12<c3manu>just things like.."i have these json objects for flickr photos, and i just want a list with the 'id' field from every one". response was "oh, that's easy: Ids = [x["id"] for x in sets["photosets"]["photoset"] ] "
20:01:50<c3manu>there must be a more explicit way to achieve that :)
20:01:53<@JAA>`jq '.photosets.photoset[].id'`
20:02:19<fireonlive>that's some funny looking python JAA :p
20:02:20<c3manu>so you're saying "just don't use python"?^^
20:02:25<@JAA>:-P
20:02:37<@JAA>What you wrote is pretty much the most efficient way of doing it in Python.
20:02:42<c3manu>nah i'm using a python lib for the api stuff
20:02:54<@JAA>Ah, so you don't have JSON, you already have Python objects.
20:03:21<c3manu>JAA: yeah, efficient as in quick to type, but not as in understandable to read. when i'm looking at that in 3 months, i have no idea anymore why that works
20:03:38<c3manu>oh, right. sorry
20:03:47<@JAA>Yeah, comprehensions take a bit of getting used to.
20:03:52<pokechu22>List comprehensions like that are probably worth learning
20:04:06<c3manu>i just used json "abstractions"(?) to get some more readable output to debug it
20:04:31<@JAA>I agree, at least simple comprehensions are one of the most useful things in Python.
20:04:37<pokechu22>and that's a pretty simple one as those things go; it's equivalent to `photoset = sets["photosets"]["photoset"]` `Ids = [x["id"] for x in photoset]`
20:04:43<@JAA>When you do multiple loops and conditions in them, it gets messy.
20:04:56<c3manu>pokechu22: i guess so. and i do want to do things "the right way", that's why i'm trying to do it in python and not just some hacks shell script
20:05:00<@JAA>Aka when you write Certified JAA One-Liners™.
20:05:10<c3manu>..but i don't really get how people see python as a beginner-friendly language
20:05:19<c3manu>:D
20:05:47<@JAA>The basic syntax is very friendly.
20:06:03<@JAA>But you exclude some pretty powerful features that way.
20:06:13<fireonlive>we should all move to mSL
20:06:27<fireonlive>god's language: mIRC scripting language
20:06:53<c3manu>seriously considered trying to dip my toes into golang instead :)
20:06:58<@JAA>Comprehensions and decorators are probably the least friendly elements that are commonly used.
20:07:06<joepie91|m>my impression is that the way people define "beginner-friendly language" usually has very little to do with the actual language and much more with what educational resources are available, and what is popular
20:07:12<fireonlive>(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIRC_scripting_language)
20:07:13<@JAA>Decorators are fine as long as you don't have to write them though.
20:08:16<c3manu>joepie91|m: do you know of some resources with good or even extensive example code?
20:08:23<c3manu>that seems to be what i work best with
20:08:38<@JAA>joepie91|m: Not wrong. I do consider Python more friendly than others because much of its basic syntax resembles pseudocode and/or is closer to how you'd describe it in English.
20:09:14<@JAA>The mandatory indentation also immediately gives people a visual clue how the code is structured.
20:09:21<c3manu>JAA: so you use some language server for auto completion i assume? you don't seem like one of those pycharm folks to me :)
20:10:04<@JAA>What's an 'auto completion'?
20:10:08<joepie91|m>also, a hot take: there isn't really such a thing as a 'beginner-friendly language'; the same things that would make a language genuinely beginner-friendly would also be of benefit to experienced developers, and apparent conflicts between "designing for beginners" and "designing for experienced users" only ever exist as a function of fundamentally bad language design where the problem space was not sufficiently mapped out
20:10:08<@JAA>:-P
20:10:16<c3manu>JAA: gotcha ^^
20:10:17<@JAA>I write most of my code in nano.
20:10:29<@JAA>Only rarely launch an IDE when working with complex code bases.
20:10:30<c3manu>lol
20:11:25<c3manu>you're the second person i would call reasonably experienced that's seriously sporting nano :)
20:11:59<c3manu>you’re not working in itsec by any chance, are you? ^^ (no need to disclose if you don't wanna answer)
20:12:10<joepie91|m>c3manu: I generally teach JS and the lacking availability of good resources is a recurring theme in my teaching (as in: I end up just explaining things myself...), so I may not be the right person to ask this :)
20:12:28<joepie91|m>admittedly JS has a bit of a bigger problem with educational quality than most languages
20:12:36<pokechu22>The non-list-comprehension way of doing it is `Ids = []` `for x in sets["photosets"]["photoset"]:` ` Ids.append(x["id"])`
20:12:44<c3manu>joepie91|m: that's not my general experience :)))
20:12:44<joepie91|m>but the difference is also not that massive
20:13:09<c3manu>like, have you read microsoft documentation on *anything* before?^^"
20:14:24<@JAA>It's a tiny, simple, but capable editor that does 99% of what I need 99% of the time. There's also an aspect of 'because I'm used to it'.
20:14:35<c3manu>pokechu22: thanks :) got that explained reasonably well from a friend working with python professionaly. but when you don't know "list comprehension" is the term to look for, you're a bit lost..
20:14:48<joepie91|m>c3manu: I have; while not *good*, it often has higher accuracy than most JS docs I see
20:15:18<joepie91|m>an awful lot of educational materials on JS are just outright wrong, and it is clear that the author does not actually understand how the thing they are "explaining" works, but just repeating some folklore they once heard
20:15:26<@JAA>c3manu: I believe the official tutorial is quite good: https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html
20:15:30<joepie91|m>this combines very poorly with an ecosystem that's susceptible to hype, because most of the folklore is wrong
20:15:46<@JAA>I can't really judge it because I didn't learn Python that way, and reading it now doesn't really tell me much about how a beginner sees it.
20:16:05<c3manu>joepie91|m: but almost always lack of context, or cohesion. i find myself often having to find the 4-5 places in their docs i need to put together to make sense of something. it all feels super fragmented
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20:16:13<joepie91|m>oh sure
20:16:19<joepie91|m>that is unfortunately common
20:16:25<c3manu>yea :(
20:16:29<joepie91|m>it's just that things are worse than that in JS :)
20:16:41<joepie91|m>though interestingly better on the presence of docs
20:16:49<c3manu>i was so hyped when stackoverflow announced their "learning by example" community documentation project
20:16:58<@JAA>What's wrong with W3School???
20:17:09<@JAA>W3Schools*
20:17:16<joepie91|m>it is very uncommon to find undocumented or to-be-documented API in a JS library, whereas in Python this is almost routine once you stray off the beaten path, IME
20:17:41<@JAA>Yeah, that sounds about right.
20:17:47<joepie91|m>(it is the main reason I dropped Python, this made it useless for my purposes)
20:17:57<c3manu>JAA: i'm not particularly good with the "sitting down for 2 hours and reading a story before applying it" side of things :C
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20:18:39<joepie91|m>in JS the quality of library docs is all over the place but it is generally safe to assume that there will be at least a pointer to the thing you're looking for, enough information to start understanding it
20:20:20<c3manu>joepie91|m: that sounds pretty alright to me, i could work with that. but for now i'm not willing to use JS myself really :/
20:20:34<@JAA>So it looks like I'd need about 25 IPs to archive the World Of Tanks forums in a day.
20:21:04<joepie91|m>JS has its issues, but of all the options I've evaluated, it was unambiguously the best option for the sort of work I do
20:21:17<joepie91|m>at least of the currently existent ones
20:21:28<joepie91|m>I am not happy with JS, just less unhappy than with everything else :)
20:21:40<joepie91|m>but language design takes a long time and I have other things to do, so JS it is
20:25:52<c3manu>i hate having to look for the least shitty thing. but that seems to be how computing or tech in general works nowadays :/
20:27:17<thuban>JAA: can we do that? i mean, i expect archiveteam has 25 ips lying around, and distributing threads by id is no problem, but are you ok with running a qwarc job on other people's boxen?
20:27:18<joepie91|m>mainly my thing is that I have a lot of unusual projects that are unlike things that already exist, but big enough in scope that I'm going to have to make use of other people's work. so I cannot follow the beaten path (which will be different from what I am trying to do), but I also cannot reinvent everything from scratch. so I need a language that is sufficiently flexible to do unanticipated things, that has sufficient third-party work to
20:27:18<joepie91|m>reuse, with sufficient documentation and crucially without assumptions about how you're going to use it, and by that point basically only JS remains
20:28:14<joepie91|m>"unopinionated libraries and the dependency management to support that in practice" is the big one
20:28:20<c3manu>yeah, that sounds like a JS job, even to me ^^
20:40:37<@JAA>thuban: Yeah, I'm thinking about how to best achieve that.
20:40:54<thuban>:)
20:42:43<@JAA>qwarc isn't really necessary. It's just what I use for my stuff.
20:43:17<@JAA>And I don't think it'd work well with DPoS without some changes.
20:44:04<thuban>are you talking for this specifically or in a general sense?
20:44:10<@JAA>Generally
20:45:02<thuban>ah, then ye
20:46:03<@JAA>Due to how it evolved, it's basically a standalone thing. Items get generated by the spec file, not passed in from the outside. When errors occur (i.e. uncaught exceptions), the process will wait indefinitely at the end. Useful for standalone stuff where you can then requeue them with sqlite3, not so here.
20:49:52<@JAA>Probably, a regular project with wget-at and putting the challenge solver into pipeline.py would be better here.
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21:05:25<thuban>right. do you intend to actually do that for this job, or just run independent qwarc blocks since time's short and it's already written?
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21:46:53<Barto>qwertyasdfuiopghjkl: well done archiving baph.is on 2023-03-23 :-)
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21:47:23<Barto>https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/fbi-seize-breachforums-hacking-forum-used-to-leak-stolen-data/
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23:15:08<pabs>c3manu: re mastodon, look at zygolophodon, it will get you post URLs, then you can archive the /embed URLs for each post and the .rss URL for the user. you could also customise it to get the API URLs it looks up
23:15:25<pabs>search the AB viewer for hachyderm.io-@sara-112117125241735836.txt, thats one I did using that method
23:15:47<pabs>https://github.com/jwilk/zygolophodon
23:16:37<pabs>please send any customisations you make upstream :)
23:17:06pabs didn't do the API parts yet, just screen-scraping the current output
23:22:09<pabs>zygolophodon is Python though :)
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23:57:10<@JAA>I've been running something across a dozen IPs for World Of Tanks for about an hour now. I don't think that'll finish in time.
23:58:00<@JAA>Response times have stayed constant, so yeah, really just rate limiting I think.
23:58:27<@JAA>arkiver: Want to do a tiny DPoS project for it?
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