| 00:30:43 | <mind_combatant> | oh, i always just assumed YAML stood for Yet Another Markup Language, surprised to learn it doesn't as much as the other stuff. |
| 00:32:13 | <nicolas17> | it originally did stand for that |
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| 00:46:25 | <@imer> | favorite yaml factoid is it being a json superset, tend to surprise people with that "just json serialize, plop it in and it'll just work" |
| 00:46:49 | <@imer> | superset might not be the right word. dunno |
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| 00:57:20 | <pabs> | Debian debates AI models and the DFSG https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1018497/52dcfe7f7e9502be/ |
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| 02:11:49 | <nicolas17> | pabs: Glaser be like "I disagree with your anti-AI proposal because it's not anti-AI enough" |
| 02:12:50 | <pabs> | I haven't followed the threads, but I'm with Glaser :) |
| 02:13:07 | <nicolas17> | me neither, I only read your lwn link :P |
| 02:13:27 | <nicolas17> | pabs: today a friend tweeted |
| 02:13:29 | <nicolas17> | "I'm doing interviews, and I'm going to give you a tip that no one asked me for: don't use ChatGPT in "listening" mode: 1st, because it shows when you don't know and answer things that aren't true, and 2nd, if you wear glasses, IT SHOWS UP IN THE REFLECTION WHEN YOU ALT TAB AND THE LLM WRITES THE ANSWER AND YOU READ IT." |
| 02:13:33 | <pabs> | its not a free model unless everything is free, including the training data/code, model weights etc |
| 02:13:43 | <pabs> | see also https://salsa.debian.org/deeplearning-team/ml-policy |
| 02:13:59 | <pabs> | lol |
| 02:16:03 | <nicolas17> | pabs: shipping huge training data as sources is highly impractical, and getting enough DFSG-free data to make the model work is highly impractical, so I think that position would basically ban LLMs from Debian... but *I'm okay with that* |
| 02:17:10 | <pabs> | both true, but possible to create workarounds for |
| 02:17:44 | <pabs> | the compute for actually doing retraining is a big problem too |
| 02:17:51 | <nicolas17> | retraining the model as part of the build is bonkers |
| 02:17:55 | <nicolas17> | nobody does that |
| 02:18:07 | <nicolas17> | and it's definitely not reproducible |
| 02:18:11 | <pabs> | although Debian doesn't require packages actually build from source, so we can skip retraining |
| 02:18:51 | <pabs> | there are some models that would meet the strictest definition; rnnoise for example does now I think |
| 02:19:06 | <pabs> | (but the copies of rnnoise already in Debian don't meet it) |
| 02:19:31 | <pabs> | maybe Bergamot (Firefox machine translation) might too |
| 02:19:41 | <nicolas17> | there's plenty of source packages that contain icons and other images as both bitmaps and the original SVG, and I don't think it's a DFSG requirement that the SVG is rendered from source into PNG at package build time |
| 02:20:43 | <pabs> | right, it isn't. it is fucking stupid that it isn't a requirement though, with reasonable exceptions. more on that at https://wiki.debian.org/AutoGeneratedFiles |
| 02:21:44 | <nicolas17> | then I'd make *that* a requirement before even remotely thinking about AI training at package build time |
| 02:25:05 | <pabs> | don't think you would do it at normal package build time. I'd make a separate AI archive, have the training done there, and other packages Recommend the AI model packages |
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| 03:44:03 | <mind_combatant> | does anyone here have enough experience with ZFS to know, if i were to get another M.2 SSD in my computer, which would benefit more from having the SSD all to itself? L2ARC or ZIL SLOG? my current setup has a boot ext4 partition and both of those all living on the same M.2 SSD, and this is obviously not ideal. i intend to get 2 more M.2 SSDs now that i upgraded to a motherboard with the slots for a total of 3, but i can only afford |
| 03:44:03 | <mind_combatant> | one at a time, so i was wondering which type of cache should get the first one? figure here's as good a place as any to ask for help. |
| 03:46:28 | <nukke> | depends on your workload |
| 03:46:49 | <nukke> | if possible, get more RAM instead of adding an L2ARC drive |
| 03:47:42 | <mind_combatant> | absolutely doing that too |
| 03:51:13 | <nicolas17> | doesn't L2ARC only make sense if the cache is on something an order of magnitude faster than the storage? |
| 03:51:23 | <nicolas17> | so L2ARC on SSD and storage on SSD is pointless |
| 03:54:55 | <mind_combatant> | it is, the main bulk of the storage in in a RAIDZ1 array on 3 14TB spinning HDDs. only the root filesystem is that ext4 partition on SSD, /home and a few other parts are all mounted from the ZFS pool. |
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| 04:16:39 | <pabs> | what M.2 SSD brands do folks recommend btw? |
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| 04:43:26 | <steering> | I still just stick with Samsungs, they're expensive but I know they're not gonna be trash :P |
| 04:43:38 | <steering> | lot of customers at work seem to like Kingston |
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| 05:02:24 | | pabs still stuck on SATA, but thinking about getting a PCI card and drives |
| 05:03:16 | <nicolas17> | PCIe cards with M.2 slots are very cheap, I think they only have passive components |
| 05:05:15 | <pabs> | they would beat SATA by much? they have multiple slots? |
| 05:07:49 | <steering> | mmh, you can usually get a couple of slots, overall bandwidth all depends on a lot |
| 05:08:05 | <steering> | I mean, if you don't have native M.2, you probably have PCIe 3 or so |
| 05:09:06 | <steering> | (it's still plenty of speed tbh but might be relevant to the latency) |
| 05:10:22 | <steering> | in newer systems you usually have an M.2 slot attached directly to the CPU, for ultra blazing fast solid state goodness |
| 05:14:02 | <steering> | 69197576704 bytes (69 GB, 64 GiB) copied, 85 s, 814 MB/s |
| 05:14:29 | <steering> | definitely beats SATA, is it noticeable compared to a SATA SSD for normal tasks? probably not :P |
| 05:16:00 | <steering> | my other disk - which isn't used yet - actually is sustaining 1.5GB/s read |
| 05:41:03 | <mind_combatant> | oh yeah, speaking of fast storage, https://hackaday.com/2025/04/21/pox-super-fast-graphene-based-flash-memory/ maybe the spiritual successor to optane is finally gonna happen? |
| 05:44:31 | <pabs> | "Demonstrated was a write speed of 400 picoseconds, non-volatile storage and a 5.5 × 106 cycle endurance with a programming voltage of 5 V" |
| 05:44:41 | | pabs wonders how that endurance compares with optane |
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| 08:23:37 | <pabs> | https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/04/25/wikipedia-nonprofit-ed-martin-letter/ |